An Old Elm Conundrum...

[Phil Young]

Below is a photograph of a letter that is part of the Old Elm archives. They've reached out to a number of researchers for comments and ideas as to its veracity and why it has been at Old Elm evidently since its beginning. The content of the letter has some at the Club convinced that it might have been an overture to build their club that was never followed through on.

In any event they are hoping that those on gca.com might have some ideas as to the individual parties (there was a recent thread about Jock Macgillicuddy on here because of this) such as who "The Committee" may have been, etc...

The letter mentions a "blueprint of a proposed layout" being enclosed. The club has long believed that blueprint is the one that I posted on Ed Oden's incredible thread collating all drawings that members come across. I will also paste that below.

I have shared my ideas and opinions with the club (and after asking they gave me permission to post drawing and letter) and so I'll keep those to myself for the moment. The one thing that I will share is that I am of the opinion that the drawing absolutely could not be from 1894 because of how detailed and mature it is and so must be a copy of an original design drawing if not an actual one ca. 1913-14. In addition, it mentions a specific RR that wasn't in existence until later several years later (thanks to a friend at the USGA for that piece of info) which also proves it couldn't have been done in 1894.

They, and myself, are looking forward to seeing what the group might be able to come up with!

[J_ Crisham]

Phil,   The drawing is certainly the layout that exists today at Old Elm- played there a couple of Sundays ago. Hopefully Dan Moore will chime in as he is involved with some historical research at OE. Outstanding golf course that flies below the radar and is certainly among the great courses in the US. Top 2 or 3 in Chicago , maybe the best. Easily at the level of a Garden City.

[Phil Young]

J,

The two questions regarding the drawing (and several other similar ones that they have in their collection) is WHO drew it and when?

[Peter Pallotta]

I can add nothing to this interesting topic, Phil - but as a casual observer I was immediately struck by the 6,400+ yards of this proposed layout -- a long course for 1914, let alone for 1894 (when such a length would be, I'm guessing, literally unprecedented). Everything about the blueprint "feels" like it comes from much, much later.
Peter

[Phil Young]

Peter,

Long yes, and yet the redesigned East lake course which Ross worked on in 1913 (the same time period that he worked with Colt on Old Elm) measured 6,462 yards, some 42 yards longer than the proposed Old Elm course.

Courses in the 6,300-6,500 yards lengths during that time period were actually becoming more common than most think.

[BCrosby]

Phil -


The drawing strikes me as similar in style to Colt's 1913 drawing of Pine Valley.


Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

As far as the letter goes, it was pointed out by Sven that there was a course at Ft. Sheridan - here's a view of it... 


...and that "Jock McGillicuddy" is the Swedish equivalent of "John Doe".  Joe Bausch searched for it found 0 mentions of that name. If he couldn't find it, well, ...


No idea on the map, although I can't recall seeing any with that amount of detail that do not show the same amount for the greens.


Could be a construction plan drawn for the builder so he'd know what type and style of bunker goes where. They're all labeled - "Torn Bunker", "Pot Bunker", etc. 

[Tom_Doak]

I found it interesting that the 61 bunkers were numbered as they appear throughout the course.  I can't remember seeing that on any architect's plans before.

[Marty Bonnar]

Perhaps J Drew Rogers might be able to shed some light?

http://www.jdrewrogers.com/41/old-elm-club

Regards,
F.

[Phil Young]

Here are two other drawings that the club has that are almost the same... In addition to lacking many of the details shown in the first drawing, both are also different from each other. The bottom one is quite similar to the one on the Ross Museum website which has added at the top: "Golfers magazine may 1913."

[Phil Young]

Tom,

That also jumped out to me as I've never seen that before either. To me it seems to prove that whoever designed and drew it knew that they would not be on site during the construction phase and wanted to make sure with as much certainty that they could that the hazards would be built to those specifics.

[Adam Lawrence]

Kevin showed those to me too. I discussed them with Drew; we both think the most likely explanation is that they were drawn by a local surveyor or similar, to Colt's instructions.


Definitely not actually done by Colt, not his handwriting. But the phrase 'torn bunker' is very evocative of HSC at this period.

[Bret Lawrence]

Phil,


Thanks for posting these maps.  The last map you posted looks like the course needed more property or maybe made  a surveying mistake? The first map looks like the proposed course after they obtained the property or fixed the mistake.  The map in the middle looks like a later version of the golf course. 


One thing that stands out to me in all of the maps are the multiple teeing areas for some of the longer holes and longer tees for the short holes.


Does the club have any plans that they know were drawn by Colt?


Bret

[Dan Moore]

I am preparing a detailed response for the Club at their request. When I complete my research I will post my thoughts here. In my opinion the 1894 letter has absolutely nothing to do with the Old Elm Club. The key to the drawing seems to be the reference to the Golfers Magazine article May 1913 just days or weeks after Ross and Colt went over the land and planned the course. Colt visited Pine Valley a few weeks later. If that map was published in May 1913 it clearly represents the work of Colt and Ross regardless of who drew it. I spent the last two days at the USGA library and unfortunately they do not have a copy of the May 1913 issue of Golfers Magazine. I am not convinced it wasn't drawn by Colt but not convinced it was either. I see other Colt plans that are similar and some that are not. Like Bob I see very clear similarities with the Colt Pine Valley map and hole drawing. Perhaps they were done in NJ while Colt was on site  by someone else at Colt's direction. More to come.

[Phil Young]

Adam & Dan, Kevin also told me that he had shared them with you as well. I asked him to let me post them because the collective ability of gca can be quite impressive in a situation such as this and he heartily agreed.

[Adam Lawrence]

Dan, I'm certain this is not Colt's handwriting. We have plenty of examples to compare it with.

[Tom_Doak]

Also, are there only grassy hollows and no bunkers on hole #12, or did whoever drew the map color over them by mistake?


I would side with Adam and Drew's guess that these were done by a local engineer based on an original plan they were given [by Colt or Ross or whomever].  A local engineer would have been the guy most likely to tally up the number of bunkers, as opposed to Colt or Ross who drew lots of plans and didn't usually do so.

[BCrosby]

Adam -


I don't think anyone is suggesting the drawing is in Colt's hand. The suggestion is rather that the mysterious drawing presents bunkers and other features much same way Colt did at the time.


My guess, for what its worth, is that whoever did the above drawing based it on an earlier Colt drawing. Phil's suggestion that the drawing was 'marked up' to assist with the construction of the course in Colt's absence makes sense to me as a plausible explanation.


Bob

[Adam Lawrence]

Bob, I was responding to Dan's remark 'I am not convinced it wasn't drawn by Colt'. I am

[Phil Young]

Adam,

Can you post some example's of Colt's handwriting so that the club and others can appreciate the difference?

[Phil Young]

Also, there are numerous differences in the drawing and writing characteristics between all three drawings to make one wonder if perhaps these were drawn by three different people as well. That adds to the puzzle...

[Sven Nilsen]

...and that "Jock McGillicuddy" is the Swedish equivalent of "John Doe".  Joe Bausch searched for it found 0 mentions of that name. If he couldn't find it, well, ...

Jim:


To be clear, "Jock McGillicuddy" is the Scottish equivalent of John Smith.  "Sven Svenson" is the Swedish equivalent of Jock McGillicuddy.


Sven

[Jason Way]

Also, are there only grassy hollows and no bunkers on hole #12, or did whoever drew the map color over them by mistake?

Those aren't hollows, Tom, they are mounds.  They have been restored recently by Drew and Dave.  Here is a picture:

[Jason Way]

Doesn't the club have detailed hole-by-hole drawings from Colt with additional notes added by Ross?  And if so, would it have been a practice at the time for Colt to have just done a rough routing along with the detailed hole sketches, that anyone with reasonable ability could have subsequently combined into that map?


Also, just to be clear Phil, is the club also trying to figure out who was on this Committee?

[Phil Young]

Jason,

The Club wants to know if the reference in the 1894 letter was to the site that 20 years later would become Old Elm. They would also like to know as much as possible about all of the individuals mentioned in the letter as possible including who "The Committee" was as this letter has been in their archives for as far back as can be traced.

They initially also wanted to know if the first drawing I posted could have been the one that was attached to the letter. The answer to that was easy based on the information I posted in the beginning. That said, since the drawing matches the course as originally built and they have two other very similar drawings, the Club is keenly interested in trying to learn the author of each of the three drawings.

I believe that these are all copies of the original Colt design and that the hazards descriptions legend on the first one shown was added to it to aid in making certain that it was built per Colt's specifications and may have been copied onto this drawing from a separate document sent along from Colt.

The actual number of original Colt drawings number in the handful so if this were done by Colt it would be incredibly valuable both historically and financially. At this point in time there are some who believe that it isn't done by Colt himself while others believe that it is similar to known works of his.

That is why this discussion is quite valuable for the Club who are watching it with keen interest...