[Dave McCollum]

After reading a few of the early posts, I went through the exercise of how I play our course.  I’m an average player, short hitter, but fairly strait (using shot shape to eliminate half the fairway theory).  I aim for a specific portion of the fairway on 12 out of 14 tee shots (really all 14, but 2 holes really aren’t that strategic).  I play with high HC old guys and believe they must do the same.  Executing the shot is another matter and, as others have said, the strategy changes.

[Jason Topp]

I am probably the opposite of Cary.  Whether or not I simply try to get it in the fairway (and on the green) is a reasonable way to check whether or not I think a course is well designed.

A course I prize highly - I try for a particular angle on 12 of 14 holes.
A course I find less compelling - 3 of 14

[Philippe Binette]

It's the 12th hole at the Prairie Club dunes course... it's a dangerous bunker... could be playable for the green, could be chip out
the course is firm and fast..
 
the point is: Are players (not only the top 1%) able to control the ball enough to lay up close to the bunker... and able to control a 120 yard shot so they can aim at a 10 feet by 10 feet target and achieved the shot ?
Would the average player play close to a bunker or aim at a 30 yard away from trouble when they can ?
 

[Ryan Coles]

I think Niall alluded to the point I was going to mention.


Just because one lacks the ability to regularly hit the part of the fairway you want, doesn't mean you don't try to execute it.  A course I used to play a lot in Spokane had an OB fence all along the right side of the 4th hole. Everytime I reached that hole I would always club down, use my 3w, and aim for the extreme left side of the fairway...knowing that if I it my normal fade it would end up in the middle and if I hit it straight it would be on the left side or even the left rough.

The vast majority of the time it worked out well and I rarely went OB on that hole.  That to me is how even high cappers can use "strategy" off the tee.

P.S.  This thread reminds me of a quip Ron White says in his standup..."Even though I had the right to remain silent, I didn't have the ability"

Most players hit 3 greens in reg according to the above stat. Yet the same players think they can hit to a particular point in the fairway. Just because they can't execute SHOULD mean that they forget this ego driven nonsense and get on with the game.

The strategy nonsense is the same dopey mentality that leads to the fairways being clogged by prats with their range finders when they don't even know how far they hit it. The same mentality that says they must stick to their nauseating pre shot routine, that they have to have a discussion with their partner about how to play a hole they play every week.

I pity caddies who have seen their new boss hack and scythe their way down the 1st ask what the 'strategy' is on 2nd tee. Their only strategy should be to get on with the game and stop kidding themselves that strategy has any relevance to the realities of their game.

[Terry Lavin]

I try to hit the fairway and try to hit the green. Then I try to two putt. I start thinking options in the pub.

[Bill_McBride]

I think Niall alluded to the point I was going to mention.


Just because one lacks the ability to regularly hit the part of the fairway you want, doesn't mean you don't try to execute it.  A course I used to play a lot in Spokane had an OB fence all along the right side of the 4th hole. Everytime I reached that hole I would always club down, use my 3w, and aim for the extreme left side of the fairway...knowing that if I it my normal fade it would end up in the middle and if I hit it straight it would be on the left side or even the left rough.

The vast majority of the time it worked out well and I rarely went OB on that hole.  That to me is how even high cappers can use "strategy" off the tee.

P.S.  This thread reminds me of a quip Ron White says in his standup..."Even though I had the right to remain silent, I didn't have the ability"

Most players hit 3 greens in reg according to the above stat. Yet the same players think they can hit to a particular point in the fairway. Just because they can't execute SHOULD mean that they forget this ego driven nonsense and get on with the game.

The strategy nonsense is the same dopey mentality that leads to the fairways being clogged by prats with their range finders when they don't even no how far they hit it. The same mentality that says they must stick to their nauseating pre shot routine, that they have to have a discussion with their partner about how to play a hole they play every week.

I pity caddies who have seen their new boss hack and scythe their way down the 1st ask what the 'strategy' is on 2nd tee. Their only strategy should be to get on with the game and stop kidding themselves that strategy has any relevance to the realities of their game.

So you're saying average players should just step up and flail away?   I strongly disagree.  As Bobby Jones said, golf is a game played on a 6" field, the space between your ears.  A lot of the fun in golf is trying to understand and engage with the architecture, the architect's plan for how each hole should be played.  One may not be able to execute the strategic shots but it adds to the enjoyment of the game to at least understand and try them.

[Paul Gray]

We play golf courses with thirty yard wide fairways and hit the ball 270 yards. Those same courses were designed with 50 yard wide fairways for people hitting the ball 200 yards.

In essence then we've reduced our available margin for error from 12.5% to about 5.5%

And there's the problem.

[jeffwarne]

We play golf courses with thirty yard wide fairways and hit the ball 270 yards. Those same courses were designed with 50 yard wide fairways for people hitting the ball 200 yards.

In essence then we've reduced our available margin for error from 12.5% to about 5.5%

And there's the problem.

small wonder it takes 2 hours longer to play 18 holes than it used to
more length to walk, less corridor to find it
 

[astavrides]

99% of the time, I locate the extent of the playing corridor on the left and the extent of the playing corridor on the right and aim halfway in between. If the trouble on the right is a lateral hazard and the trouble on the left is OB, I may favor the right a bit. I'm a 10 handicap. I'm exaggerating only slightly about the way I determine my strategy from the tee.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Niall alluded to the point I was going to mention.


Just because one lacks the ability to regularly hit the part of the fairway you want, doesn't mean you don't try to execute it.  A course I used to play a lot in Spokane had an OB fence all along the right side of the 4th hole. Everytime I reached that hole I would always club down, use my 3w, and aim for the extreme left side of the fairway...knowing that if I it my normal fade it would end up in the middle and if I hit it straight it would be on the left side or even the left rough.

The vast majority of the time it worked out well and I rarely went OB on that hole.  That to me is how even high cappers can use "strategy" off the tee.

P.S.  This thread reminds me of a quip Ron White says in his standup..."Even though I had the right to remain silent, I didn't have the ability"

Most players hit 3 greens in reg according to the above stat. Yet the same players think they can hit to a particular point in the fairway. Just because they can't execute SHOULD mean that they forget this ego driven nonsense and get on with the game.

The strategy nonsense is the same dopey mentality that leads to the fairways being clogged by prats with their range finders when they don't even know how far they hit it. The same mentality that says they must stick to their nauseating pre shot routine, that they have to have a discussion with their partner about how to play a hole they play every week.

I pity caddies who have seen their new boss hack and scythe their way down the 1st ask what the 'strategy' is on 2nd tee. Their only strategy should be to get on with the game and stop kidding themselves that strategy has any relevance to the realities of their game.

Ryan,

While this could be the case on the 1st or second playing of a course, as one figures out different options, its not so after that.

For example, with the course I played, after I figured out my personal strategy for success, I used it every single time I got to the tee.  There was no extra time, no calculating, no figuring, no nothing.  Just get up to the tee box and aim to the left edge of the fairway. 

And you also forget about the fact that the thinking part can be done while others are hitting, not when its your turn to hit.  Its no different than to when I'm on the green.  I'm already looking at my line, looking at the break, judging green speed, so by the time its my turn to putt, I've already got most of it figured out.

PS.  Bill McB, Amen to your last post.  Strategy is not reserved for scratch golfers only.....even us high cappers are still trying to figure out how to save a few strokes, even if our execution is not anywhere as good or consistent.

[Doug Siebert]

I only aim for a particular side of the fairway when there's an obvious advantage for me to do so - typically one I've learned the hard way (i.e. on a course I'm familiar with) On a course I haven't played before I'll rarely aim for a particular side of the fairway unless the fairways are huge and/or the advantage is obvious even from back on the tee.

If I think about the course I play most often, I default to playing right edge of the fairway because 1) when I'm playing well almost all my misses are left and 2) almost every hole has OB or ball eating trees/native on the left, and loads of room on the right. There are two holes where I will vary the side of the fairway I aim at because the approach angle really matters for me depending on the pin location.  And three holes where I will always take a super aggressive line on the left edge or even inside the left edge because it confers such a massive advantage on the next shot that it is worth the risk.

[cary lichtenstein]

I have a game plan, try to execute on every hole, but...on my home course in Chicago, Green Acres, the fairways were very tight. so 50% was about average for me, about 7 of 14.


In Florida, with fairways more generous, I clearly hit more fairways, try to miss on the side with the least trouble

[Michael Graham]

Ryan,


I absolutely agree. I think for most club golfers the first objective is clear the ladies tee. As long as one's tee shot is find-able and hopefully in play most mid to high handicappers would be pretty pleased.


Does anyone have a statistical breakdown of the numbers of fairways hit by each handicap category?

Michael,


I just submitted an "in my opinion" piece on trees but probably won't go to online print until December.  This was an interesting tidbit that I think ties into your question:


Greens in Reg by handicap:


25-30 - 10%
20-25 - 12%
15-20 - 20%
10-15 - 27%
  5-10 - 36%
   0-5  - 47%

This is why width matters (in my view) when the average golfer only hits 3-4 greens per round.  Combine that with sub 30 yard fairways and 'strategy' becomes survival. 

Thanks Joe. That's exactly what I was hoping for. Your stats show that 'club golfers' hit even fewer fairways than I would have thought. I do appreciate those numbers may vary slightly depending on length and set up of different courses.


It's these sort of traditional statistics i.e. fairways hit, greens in regulation, putts per round etc. that are being phased out by 'strokes gained' which compare golfers to a benchmark for each handicap. Mark Brodie argues strokes gained gives a truer reflection of a player's performance.

[Thomas Dai]

Does your desire to properly place tee shots rather than go for max distance change depending on whether you're playing in a 1 round medal, a 1 round stableford, a comp over 2-3-4 rounds, a pairs comp (either 4bbb or foursomes) or a team comp/alliance etc?


Lots of competition variations to ponder but does your strategy vary? Attack or defend? Aggressive or conservative? Hole-by-hole or round by round? Rain or shine? Wind or calm? First few holes or last few holes?


atb

[Joe Sponcia]

Michael,


(Also from the same article I just finished)


"In truth, greens have always been the equalizer and the greatest defense of par. Consider the make percentages for the PGA tour on the putting green www.pgatour.com and then safely cut the average club members same percentages in half:

10 feet - 38%
15 feet - 22%
20 feet - 14%
25 feet - 10%

Ryan,


I absolutely agree. I think for most club golfers the first objective is clear the ladies tee. As long as one's tee shot is find-able and hopefully in play most mid to high handicappers would be pretty pleased.


Does anyone have a statistical breakdown of the numbers of fairways hit by each handicap category?

Michael,


I just submitted an "in my opinion" piece on trees but probably won't go to online print until December.  This was an interesting tidbit that I think ties into your question:


Greens in Reg by handicap:


25-30 - 10%
20-25 - 12%
15-20 - 20%
10-15 - 27%
  5-10 - 36%
   0-5  - 47%

This is why width matters (in my view) when the average golfer only hits 3-4 greens per round.  Combine that with sub 30 yard fairways and 'strategy' becomes survival. 

Thanks Joe. That's exactly what I was hoping for. Your stats show that 'club golfers' hit even fewer fairways than I would have thought. I do appreciate those numbers may vary slightly depending on length and set up of different courses.


It's these sort of traditional statistics i.e. fairways hit, greens in regulation, putts per round etc. that are being phased out by 'strokes gained' which compare golfers to a benchmark for each handicap. Mark Brodie argues strokes gained gives a truer reflection of a player's performance.

[Sean Leary]

I think as a general rule people aim away from where the trouble is based upon their preferred shot shape. Even the pros. When they lay up they lay up so that it is short of where the trouble is, hitting a club that can't reach it.

People will try to carry bunkers but will  almost never try to just miss it for the best angle in.  Any claims otherwise occur after you get lucky and hit it there by mistake.

A high handicapper talking about placing their ball on the preferred side of the fairway for the best angle in with trouble on that side ?  Nerd architecture chatter. Or someone that doesn't keep score when they play.

[Kalen Braley]

I think as a general rule people aim away from where the trouble is based upon their preferred shot shape. Even the pros. When they lay up they lay up so that it is short of where the trouble is, hitting a club that can't reach it.

People will try to carry bunkers but will  almost never try to just miss it for the best angle in.  Any claims otherwise occur after you get lucky and hit it there by mistake.

A high handicapper talking about placing their ball on the preferred side of the fairway for the best angle in with trouble on that side ?  Nerd architecture chatter. Or someone that doesn't keep score when they play.

Sean,

I'm a high capper, and a case can be made that I do that on occasion.  A course I used to play often had a par 4 with water up the entire left hand side of the hole.  As one who hits a fade or a slice the vast majority of the time, I would regularly aim towards the left hand side where the water was, knowing that the ball would go to the right.  The mitigating factor to this was, missing to the right was no good because there were trees and thick rough and it would often result in not being able to reach the green.

So there is on occasion... some situations where myself as a high capper would hit towards trouble as "strategic" move.

[Sean Leary]

I think as a general rule people aim away from where the trouble is based upon their preferred shot shape. Even the pros. When they lay up they lay up so that it is short of where the trouble is, hitting a club that can't reach it.

People will try to carry bunkers but will  almost never try to just miss it for the best angle in.  Any claims otherwise occur after you get lucky and hit it there by mistake.

A high handicapper talking about placing their ball on the preferred side of the fairway for the best angle in with trouble on that side ?  Nerd architecture chatter. Or someone that doesn't keep score when they play.

Sean,

I'm a high capper, and a case can be made that I do that on occasion.  A course I used to play often had a par 4 with water up the entire left hand side of the hole.  As one who hits a fade or a slice the vast majority of the time, I would regularly aim towards the left hand side where the water was, knowing that the ball would go to the right.  The mitigating factor to this was, missing to the right was no good because there were trees and thick rough and it would often result in not being able to reach the green.

So there is on occasion... some situations where myself as a high capper would hit towards trouble as "strategic" move.

Understood. I certainly don't mean every shot in my statement. Question, would you try to just miss the water for a better angle rather than just not hitting it right? Or if that was OOB left do you think that you would have played it the same way? With OOB, a miss right isn't ideal but better than re teeing.


My main argument against this has always been this. Let's say you have a straight hole with a wide fairway. Let's say trouble of some kind is left, but left is the best angle in. No major trouble center or right. As a general rule, I don't think anyone tries to hit the left side of the fairway for the best angle, bringing danger into play. That's all. And yes I know there will be exceptions.

[Mike Benham]

A high handicapper talking about placing their ball on the preferred side of the fairway for the best angle in with trouble on that side ?  Nerd architecture chatter. Or someone that doesn't keep score when they play.

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

I would certainly agree there in principle.  If getting to one side of the fairway only means you have a better angle and  involves taking on trouble to get that angle, then yes as a high capper, I'm almost never going to take it on.

In the previous scenario, if there was OOB left instead of just a lateral water hazard, I suspect I would have probably played safer so I'm not hitting 3 on the tee, instead of 3 200+ yards further up by the water.

I guess the whole reason for me jumping in this thread is to say that even us high cappers do try to use strategy, and we do use our noggin to get around the course...even if in many cases its only about avoiding big numbers and "saving" a single bogey instead of taking double or triple.

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

I would certainly agree there in principle.  If getting to one side of the fairway only means you have a better angle and  involves taking on trouble to get that angle, then yes as a high capper, I'm almost never going to take it on.

In the previous scenario, if there was OOB left instead of just a lateral water hazard, I suspect I would have probably played safer so I'm not hitting 3 on the tee, instead of 3 200+ yards further up by the water.

I guess the whole reason for me jumping in this thread is to say that even us high cappers do try to use strategy, and we do use our noggin to get around the course...even if in many cases its only about avoiding big numbers and "saving" a single bogey instead of taking double or triple.

Got it. BTW, I don't think its just a high handicapper thing. Lower handicaps care less about angle because they can hit shots that make angle less relevant. They aren't hitting it left on purpose either...

[Niall C]

It's the 12th hole at the Prairie Club dunes course... it's a dangerous bunker... could be playable for the green, could be chip out
the course is firm and fast..
 
the point is: Are players (not only the top 1%) able to control the ball enough to lay up close to the bunker... and able to control a 120 yard shot so they can aim at a 10 feet by 10 feet target and achieved the shot ?
Would the average player play close to a bunker or aim at a 30 yard away from trouble when they can ?

Philipe

Its probably much easier for an average golfer to not overhit a shot than it is to hit the ball in the right direction. In any case even if the average punter decides to play to the other side of the fairway to play safe, is that not also strategy ? The point is he has a choice.

Niall

[Niall C]

I think Niall alluded to the point I was going to mention.


Just because one lacks the ability to regularly hit the part of the fairway you want, doesn't mean you don't try to execute it.  A course I used to play a lot in Spokane had an OB fence all along the right side of the 4th hole. Everytime I reached that hole I would always club down, use my 3w, and aim for the extreme left side of the fairway...knowing that if I it my normal fade it would end up in the middle and if I hit it straight it would be on the left side or even the left rough.

The vast majority of the time it worked out well and I rarely went OB on that hole.  That to me is how even high cappers can use "strategy" off the tee.

P.S.  This thread reminds me of a quip Ron White says in his standup..."Even though I had the right to remain silent, I didn't have the ability"

Most players hit 3 greens in reg according to the above stat. Yet the same players think they can hit to a particular point in the fairway. Just because they can't execute SHOULD mean that they forget this ego driven nonsense and get on with the game.

The strategy nonsense is the same dopey mentality that leads to the fairways being clogged by prats with their range finders when they don't even know how far they hit it. The same mentality that says they must stick to their nauseating pre shot routine, that they have to have a discussion with their partner about how to play a hole they play every week.

I pity caddies who have seen their new boss hack and scythe their way down the 1st ask what the 'strategy' is on 2nd tee. Their only strategy should be to get on with the game and stop kidding themselves that strategy has any relevance to the realities of their game.

Ryan

Hopefully your post was just an attempted wind up because if not you are just coming across as a professional/low handicap arrogant tosser. To suggest less accomplished golfers haven't the right to engage the brain cells is the sort of thing that would have Mr. Mucci calling you a moron for. Let it also be said that the use of strategy doesn't necessarily require more time nor does it necessarily need technology to allow the average golfer to use it. Simply weighing up your options as you approach your ball will do.

Niall   

[Doug Siebert]

Does your desire to properly place tee shots rather than go for max distance change depending on whether you're playing in a 1 round medal, a 1 round stableford, a comp over 2-3-4 rounds, a pairs comp (either 4bbb or foursomes) or a team comp/alliance etc?


Lots of competition variations to ponder but does your strategy vary? Attack or defend? Aggressive or conservative? Hole-by-hole or round by round? Rain or shine? Wind or calm? First few holes or last few holes?

If I'm playing in a match obviously my strategy could change depending on what my opponent does or I think is likely to do. If I'm playing with a partner I'm usually the longer hitter not the straighter hitter so I'm hitting second, so what I do may depend on what he's done. And of course things change with the position in the match, or the conditions. Back in the day with a balata ball and small headed driver, it was a bit terrifying driving into a 20-25 mph wind, if you mishit a bit the ball could go anywhere. You can still hit some ugly shots today, but the margin for error is far larger.

I will say that the 460cc driver completely changed my basic strategy off the tee. I used to hit a 1 iron off about half the driving holes, occasionally including even some par 5s (if I could still reach them despite that, or if I wouldn't be able to even with the driver) Now I hardly ever do - mostly because the 460cc is so much easier to hit than the old driver was, and the rest because without hitting 7 or 8 1 irons off the tee per round like I used to I'm nowhere near as deadly with it as I used to be.

[Matthew Sander]

Most golfers couldn't hit their own ass with a banjo.


Much nonsense is spoken about them choosing a particular side of the fairway. Their dispersion and margin for error is far beyond that. People overstating their strategic genius is second only to people over estimating their driving distance.


Truth is they decide what their strategy was after they've finished and depending on where the ball went, not before.

C'mon Mr. Coles. Regardless of a player's ability, is it such a stretch to concede that anyone could appreciate the strategies (overt and/or subtle) on offer for a given hole? I understand that likelihood of execution precludes most of reliably playing to those strategies. It doesn't mean they aren't understood or can't be dicussed/appreciated.


Maybe it makes me a buffoon (certainly a dweeb), but I do like to assess the strategy of a hole while I summarily butcher it.

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