Can the setting make for an enjoyable round on a relatively mediocre course?

[Tom_Doak]

Is it possible to enjoy a mediocre course in a lovely setting?  Of course.  But I usually don't, because it is obviously an opportunity wasted.  that's a beautiful property, Tommy, and it's too bad they didn't find someone to make the most of it

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy - I'd be interested in knowing: you're a good golfer who has played the game for many years and in many places on some of the greatest courses in the world. For you, at this course in SA, how much did you miss "hitting the (interesting) shots" and "interacting with the (quality) architecture" and "appreciating the (strategic) choices/options" that you've experience at better courses? I guess what I'm asking is: with the lovely scenery and the fine companionship and the sheer pleasure that is golf in and of itself, was your enjoyment *at all diminished* by the relative lack of interesting shots, quality architecture, and strategic choices?
Peter

Peter, I just love hitting a golf ball.  I especially love the creative shots around the green.  At 68 gravity is not my friend so I practice flop shots, low spinners, sand shots, shots off scruffy lies, chipping, putting etc.  Consequently, I love courses that require a lot of creativity.  Greens complexes are an important feature for me.  This course was attractive had some water that got your attention but around the greens it was boring.  Miss a green at this courses and there is merely a straight forward chip with a 7 iron of pitching wedge. A lot of guys like that because it is easy to make par.  I think it is dreadful and lazy design.  Part of the reason I have joined Musgrove Mill and Ballyhack is because of the greens complexes.  As far as I am concerned they make or break a course.  I played Rolling Green in Philly recently.  The greens complexes were brilliant.  The green speed was a little quick for the slope but it got you attention and required all the skill I had. What I have to do when I play  dull course is enjoy the company, being outside, and the scenic value of a course.

[JESII]

Pebble Beach?


There...I said it!


2 is fine
4 is cool
6 - 10 are great
14 is cool from 150 in
18 has good


Fire away...

[Tommy Williamsen]

Is it possible to enjoy a mediocre course in a lovely setting?  Of course.  But I usually don't, because it is obviously an opportunity wasted.  that's a beautiful property, Tommy, and it's too bad they didn't find someone to make the most of it

I think where you shine is in and around the greens.  Part of the reason I love Ballyneal is what is demanded of players who miss the greens. The terrain is lovely and the shots into the greens demanding but the shots on and around the greens fun and require all the skill I have. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pebble Beach?


There...I said it!


2 is fine
4 is cool
6 - 10 are great
14 is cool from 150 in
18 has good


Fire away...

Pebble isn't my favorite course, but it certainly isn't dull or mediocre.

[Kirk Gill]

There are a lot of things that can make for an enjoyable round on a mediocre course. A beautiful setting is one (Arrowhead, anyone?), but there are others. Great company, as was mentioned before, is huge. Another is scoring well. It may be weak to admit it, but I do tend to have a better day when I'm scoring well, or even just hitting some great shots. I saw Tom Doak's post, and from his perspective I can see that a poor course built on a good bit of property or a property with a nice view is an opportunity lost, but for a guy like me, the fact that the course might be cheap, for instance, might help make the round better! Throw in good beer choices from a pretty cart girl, and it seems like a nice day out. If the course is a great walk, then all the better.


I generally know the quality of course I'm heading off to play. Maybe my expectations change when I know the course isn't that good, and thus I'm more able to ignore its inadequacies. Maybe I'm just easy. Or cheap AND easy.

[Mike_Young]

I consider most mountain courses to fit the bill....some beautiful courses but usually there are one or two kinky holes on all of them. 

[jeffwarne]

What Sean said...
and though he and I disagree about the quality of Nefyn the  .  setting definitely elevates it.
ad it does at any course.
A walk in a great park is better than a walk in a bad park.
With most golfers, strategy is mainly irrelevant anyway(unless it has ragged edges ), so I tend to rate the setting higher than most on GCA .

[Tommy Williamsen]

What Sean said...
and though he and I disagree about the quality of Nefyn the  .  setting definitely elevates it.
ad it does at any course.
A walk in a great park is better than a walk in a bad park.
With most golfers, strategy is mainly irrelevant anyway(unless it has ragged edges ), so I tend to rate the setting higher than most on GCA .

Not quite sure I understand why for "most golfers strategy is mainly irrelevant."

[Joe Sponcia]

Wade Hampton

[Mike_Young]

Wade Hampton

Joe,
That's the example that made me post.  Nice course but personally I consider it one of the best "mountain " courses and if it were not for the mountains would not consider it great.   JMO

[Tommy Williamsen]

Wade Hampton

Joe,
That's the example that made me post.  Nice course but personally I consider it one of the best "mountain " courses and if it were not for the mountains would not consider it great.   JMO

Do you think the setting causes some courses to be overrated? Is the opposite true that some courses suffer because of location?

[Jon Wiggett]

Wade Hampton

Joe,
That's the example that made me post.  Nice course but personally I consider it one of the best "mountain " courses and if it were not for the mountains would not consider it great.   JMO

Do you think the setting causes some courses to be overrated? Is the opposite true that some courses suffer because of location?

I would suggest that if RL&SA was fronting the beach it would get far more accolades than it does and that Machrihanish is better rated due to the beach. On the flip side TOC is highly rated despite it's low key surroundings for much of the round and Eyemouth does not gain anything from being in such a spectacular setting so it is not always an influence.

Jon

[Tommy Williamsen]

RL. Royal Liverpool?
SA?

[Duncan Cheslett]

RL. Royal Liverpool?
SA?

RL&SA is one course, Tommy.

Royal Lytham & St Annes.   

[Matthew Mollica]

Kauri Cliffs

[Tim_Weiman]

Pebble Beach?


There...I said it!


2 is fine
4 is cool
6 - 10 are great
14 is cool from 150 in
18 has good


Fire away...

Jim,


Different subject/thread.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Kauri Cliffs

This makes me curious. My wife and are planning a trip to NZ in the next year. We were thinking about staying on the South Island but I would like to see Cape Kidnappers and Kauri Cliffs. I know the green fees are steep. You saying "Forget it?"

[Matthew Mollica]

Tommy, the accommodation is amazing. The  location is breath taking. The golf course architecture is not that inspiring. Hence my suggestion you could enjoy a wonderful round courtesy of the setting. If push came to shove, I'd be visiting Paraparaumu Beach and Kidnappers long before Kauri.

[Martin Lehmann]

Crans-sur-Sierre in Switzerland is such a course. This summer I played a round at The Equinox in Manchester, Vermont. Beautiful place, but the golf course was nothing special. Enjoyed it heavily though!

[David Davis]

Most certainly and another case where it's all relative. You guys have mentioned places like Old Head, which popped into my mind first of all but thats relative and perhaps derived from the fact that a while back there were people saying it's the best course in the world. Sure the middle holes are average but there are some great holes surrounding the cliffs. Maybe 50/50 but the views certainly make it enjoyable/spectacular to most that visit. So that's an extreme example. What about 95% of all seaside resort courses. How about nearly every course in Portugal and Spain (resort courses) and I'd add Oitavos to that list. How about most courses in the dessert. Most courses in the Middle East. As Martin stated, I could take that further and say most courses in Austria, Switzerland, Italy and Southern Germany where you can see the alps from the restaurant patio.


If you can't have an enjoyable round on all these mediocre courses, being in another country and totally different culture with amazing views of the alps then you may just be participating in the wrong sport or need to pull off your architecture nerd hats long enough to smell the roses and just plain have fun. I totally understand the view of an archie being different but lets face it in my example, I'd easily trade in a few rounds a year at a great courses in the ugliest of settings for a few rounds on mediocre courses in spectacular settings. Though I'd certainly trade all these for amazing courses with amazing settings if it were possible.


I can't believe Wade Hampton was mentioned while it's neighbor Mountain Top was not. Wade Hampton is a great course in my opinion, Mountain Top much less so, but the views there are breathtaking and so the cart ball round is incredibly enjoyable to me.

[cary lichtenstein]

Old Head

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
Your point is a good one about nice scenery making up for a “dull” course.  Unfortunately, most of us here are spoiled because of where we get to play.  I’ve been lucky to experience a few good ones but yesterday I went back to a little public course where I used to play 25 years ago.  Our golf league played nine hole matches there.  It is about a 3 on the Doak scale to put things in perspective.  This might be sacrilegious to say, but I had almost as much fun (maybe more) than I sometimes do playing any number of the greatest courses in the world.  Believe it or not, even on a dead straight hole with minimal design interest going on, you can practice low or high fades, draws, knock down shots, ….etc etc.  Around the greens you can still hit bump and runs, flops, chips, belly wedges,…the list of creative options goes on.  It is still golf, and 99% of the golfers out there play these courses all the time and we sometimes forget that.  I watched group after group enjoy a beautiful fall day here in the Northeast and they weren’t the least bit concerned that the course they were playing wasn’t going to make someone’s Top 100 list.  They were having the best time relaxing, enjoying their friend's company, and playing golf (or at least trying to as it seems the majority were not very good at it).  We also forget the average golfer still struggles to break 100! 


Believe me, I appreciate a great golf course and couldn’t help at times from thinking how with a little advice and tweaking, this course could be notched up significantly.  But at the same time I realized, if you love the game, you can have just as much fun on a decently maintained dog track   


By the way, Old Head is a 13 for the views and about a 4 for the design 

[Josh Tarble]

Kauri Cliffs

This makes me curious. My wife and are planning a trip to NZ in the next year. We were thinking about staying on the South Island but I would like to see Cape Kidnappers and Kauri Cliffs. I know the green fees are steep. You saying "Forget it?"

Tommy,
If you're going to New Zealand, I would highly advise you to NOT skip it.  There are some average holes but there are also some really, really good ones.  The setting is as spectacular as you'll ever find and the entire experience is absolutely first class.  We went for a round on our honeymoon and it was one of my wife's favorite things we did the experience was so great.

[JStewart]

Old Head has to be the poster child for this concept.

Yup. That's a course I'd build into every SW Ireland itinerary simply for the setting.