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RSantangelo

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Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« on: November 10, 2015, 08:50:12 PM »
I played Oakmont for the first time this spring and loved it - so much so that I persuaded my friend to plan a 2nd overnight for us in the fall!  As a 14 index, I for sure had good nines and bad nines (from a card and pencil perspective) but every 9 was thrilling and I cannot wait to have another crack at it. 

So the question is, what courses that emerged from a penal school of design do folks enjoy playing and why?




Rob Marshall

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2015, 09:11:29 PM »
I think Bethpage Black is about as penal as it gets but if you're on your game you can shoot a good score. I can't wait to go back.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

MCirba

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2015, 09:21:59 PM »
Royal Lytham and St.Anne's.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sean_A

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 09:32:25 PM »
I think the only one which makes my top 100 favourites is Merion...and that isn't meant to be a penal course. Harsh bowling alley rough has conspired to muck up a few courses which should be great fun...Ballybunion is probably highest on that list for me.  I think Ganton too should be awesome if not for stupid rough. Hell, I could say the same for Co Down & Portrush.  Perhaps the biggest modern crime is Renaissance.  I still think it is a great course, but not necessarily a lot of fun to play.


There is also an argument to be made that Brancaster is a penal course and it sure is a lot of fun...proper fun...not battling the card nonsense.


Ciao
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 09:41:18 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

MCirba

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 09:39:05 PM »
Sean,

You'll probably be pleased to hear that the widths of the fairways were ample and the length and depth of rough at Renaissance were very playable. 

My assumption is that this is due to not being selected for the Scottish Open, supposedly partly due to the narrowing of fairways and depth and thickness of rough, may be responsible for the turn of events.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 10:54:26 PM »
I played Oakmont for the first time this spring and loved it - so much so that I persuaded my friend to plan a 2nd overnight for us in the fall!  As a 14 index, I for sure had good nines and bad nines (from a card and pencil perspective) but every 9 was thrilling and I cannot wait to have another crack at it. 

So the question is, what courses that emerged from a penal school of design do folks enjoy playing and why?
 
RSantangelo,
 
I think you have to add a qualifier/caveat.
 
"ON A DAILY BASIS"
 
Isn't that the real test ?
 
Almost everybody enjoys a new/strange challenge, but, would they enjoy it on a daily basis ?


RSantangelo

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2015, 11:06:30 PM »
Pat


That is definitely a good comment...in my case, I would be happy to play it over and over

There are shots that are so much fun to hit and so rewarding when you do....and, at least The two visits I made, the rough did not make it hard to find the ball and reasonably playable....So when I hit a bad shot into a fairway bunker,  I had a stiffer penalty but would still love hitting the approach shots and greens...

I agree that is the test, but for me I just find the holes so interesting and so varied that I am fine to take a bigger penalty for a bad shot in return for the thrills it offers


K Rafkin

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 01:57:13 AM »
Sean,

You'll probably be pleased to hear that the widths of the fairways were ample and the length and depth of rough at Renaissance were very playable. 

My assumption is that this is due to not being selected for the Scottish Open, supposedly partly due to the narrowing of fairways and depth and thickness of rough, may be responsible for the turn of events.


I recently played Renaissance and found the fairways to be "wide enough" but it was obvious that they had shrunk the fairways when I found my ball 10 feet in the rough next to a sprinkler head.  There are also several bunkers that are completely surrounded by tall grass that I believe were intended to have balls rolling into them.  Renaissance sits in a fairly windy area and was playing as F&F as any course I played in Scotland so I wouldn't fight them if they wanted to widen the place back to its intended width.  All things considered I thought Renaissance was terrific!  Hole 10 is insane. 


Additionally I really enjoy Pikewood.  It's way too long and way too difficult, but it does have its many charms. 

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 03:34:55 AM »
Penal and difficult are not synonyms. I can't help feeling that Tillinghast would be turning in his grave at the suggestion that Bethpage Black is of the penal school.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 04:45:58 AM »
I don't come across many flat out penal courses and by penal (using the often cited Oakland Hills as penal) I would say about half or more of the holes play down corridors pinched by hazards and/or forced carries. In other words, holes where the options are severely limited. 


My question though is this, if it is harsh rough creating the narrow corridors rather than hazards, how narrow must a fairway be to considered penal?  I am sure anything under 30 yards (sort of the now classic parkland US Open width) with hacking rough is considered penal.  How wide does that very playable corridor have to be not to be called penal?  I have had the fierce debate with Pearce and others where Ganton and Muirfield are concerned.  My line has really been that the two are essentially penal courses (and not nearly as engaging or fun) because of the setup encouraging rough to be influentially on par with the famous strategically placed bunkers.  I use summer conditions as the guide stick because I am sure we all agree that it is the time when courses have the best chance to be keen and thus allow strategic design to shine at its brightest. 


On sites where firmness and wind can play a big factor, my minimum line is around an average of 50 yards of very playable corridor (mostly fairway!).  I spose on more wet parkland type courses that average could drop maybe as much as 10 yards (to a minimum of 40ish yards) and on a hilly site go up at least 10 yards. There can't be many championship links offering the width I mention and/or keeping the rough in check. 


Ciao
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 04:51:01 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Josh Stevens

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 04:54:03 AM »
So does this not beg the question of why you enjoy it?

If its just a grinding slog then that's no fun, so presumably its a grinding slog but with sufficient redeeming features to make it seem worth the effort?

Is it the beauty of the surroundings?
The amazing greens?
the lovely bunkering?
the quirky fun?
you got an eagle?
the prestige and history?
the wine list?

I played Kingston Heath some many years back at a time of year near their club championships. There was more tee tree then, the rough was up, the greens were running about 30 on the stimp and I only just avoided shooting triple figures, But it was gorgeous, just enough beauty and enough good shots to make it lovely despite the score

Phil Young

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2015, 05:49:21 AM »
Adam, I agree with you that “Penal” and “Difficult” are two very different terms. I disagree that a great course can’t be both.

You stated that “Penal and difficult are not synonyms. I can't help feeling that Tillinghast would be turning in his grave at the suggestion that Bethpage Black is of the penal school.”

I think that he would be greatly pleased at its being viewed that way as well as being viewed as difficult since he wrote about the Black being both.

In his article “Man Killers” he wrote, “Every now and again throughout the country there are to be encountered courses that snarl like a Sabre Toothed Tiger. Some of these are just savage because it is the nature of the beast. To be so because of its environment – unusually rugged country or windswept, sand blown stretches that the eyes of the humble golfer regard with something closely akin to error. Yet in other instances the tigers have been goaded to ferocity – in brief they have been made ferocious intentionally. The great course at Pine Valley, renowned as one very exacting round for the top-notch golfers – particularly those in the Philadelphia district. In no manner was it conceived to attract the unskilled players for frequent recreation.

“Certainly no course in America has been so much discussed in past years as the Black Course at Bethpage Park, where the Long Island Park Commission accomplished something never before attempted – the planning and building over the same tract, no less than four courses...

“It was his [Burbeck] ambition to have something which might compare with Pine Valley as a great test and although my continual travels over the country in the P.G.A. work have prevented me from seeing play over Bethpage’s Black since its opening, I am rather inclined to believe from reports from some of the best players that it is showing plenty of teeth…

“But for the more exalted par-shooters, and there are a great many of these lads, too, who want to know exactly how good they are, there are Pine Valley, Old Black and a few others to humble them, and the country may well stand a few, just a few, for this humblin’ operation, which after all, will make greater golfers of them…

“The terrain presents infinite variety. Never quite flat but gently undulating, it grades to impressive ruggedness which is never permitted to suggest arduous playing conditions. It is strongly remindful of the Pine Valley land, that strange freak of rolling country in otherwise flat south Jersey. The character of many of the fairways, too, is similar to that of the famous Pine Valley in their isolation one from the others.

“The swales and valleys, through which the play passes to the the day it was noised through the land that this man eater was loose. From all quarters the underdogs of golfdom travel to take maybe just one snap at the old killer.”

Tilly wouldn't be turning over in his grave, rather, if one can get past the idea that he was cremated and couldn't turn anyway, he would be quite pleased with how the Black has maintained itself as one of the rare courses that can "humble" the "exalted par shooters" day in & day out.

To answer the thread's title, I have a passionate love for the Black and enjoyed well over 400+ rounds on it. For me there is no feeling like walking down the slope off the 1st tee knowing that the adventure is beginning anew. Regardless of how I was playing there has never been a single time that walk didn't ignite my passion for the game and course. Having recently gone through a second spinal fusion in my neck I know that I'll be most fortunate to be able to simply knock the ball around from the most forward of tees on the humblest of courses. Still, every time I find myself back in NY and I visit Bethpage I always wander out on the course for a bit of a walk and a renewal of spirit.

MCirba

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2015, 06:41:10 AM »
Nice post, Phil.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark Pearce

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2015, 07:30:51 AM »
I don't consider either Muirfield or Ganton to be penal.  But others (Sean most prominently) do.  And I love playing both of them.

I was astonished to see Portrush thrown into this debate.  Again, I love it but don't consider it penal.

I do consider Carnoustie to be penal and really, really enjoyed playing there, despite scoring appallingly.  I would say the same about Wolf Run.  Penal but a blast.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

BHoover

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 07:30:59 AM »
Myopia looks like a course that would be both extremely penal and extremely enjoyable at the same time. It may not be a brute like Oakmont, but from the photos I've seen, it does look to be penal.

Sean_A

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2015, 08:30:48 AM »
I don't consider either Muirfield or Ganton to be penal.  But others (Sean most prominently) do.  And I love playing both of them.

I was astonished to see Portrush thrown into this debate.  Again, I love it but don't consider it penal.



That is why I asked the question about minimum fairway width whereby strategic design has an opportunity to be utilized.  I don't think the ODGs envisioned fairways as narrow as today with the added pressure of rough and or trees.   


I am one of those guys that thinks the Strategic School stems partly from a happy coinicidence when TOC was widened.  Just as folks lost their way leading up to the London Heathland era, I think today we have lost our way with fairway width.  Folks these days don't really know that fairways could be wide enough whereby choices for position (other than lay-up or go for it  :-\ ) is possible.  This is becoming more and more rare.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Gallant

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2015, 08:39:06 AM »

I do consider Carnoustie to be penal and really, really enjoyed playing there, despite scoring appallingly.  I would say the same about Wolf Run.  Penal but a blast.


I agree with Carnoustie. I really enjoy playing the course, but continually shoot my worst scores of the year there. This actually got me thinking as well about my strategy for playing Carnoustie. On every hole, my view is pretty much hit it straight and hit it long. Sure, holes like 3, 5, 6, 14 and 18 present some options (mostly to do with carrying bunkers or hazards), but largely, I don't usually think twice about what to hit. So then why do I enjoy the course so much? Is it the greens? Or possibly the fact that I know it is a stern test, with which I can measure the state of my game against?

RSantangelo

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2015, 08:57:33 AM »
Do folks think it has to do with the type of difficulty?

Nothing ruins a day in my view like searching for a ball....and worse yet, losing the ball and not being able to finish he whole without going back to the tee or having an asterisk on the card..for me, I'd rather hit it in the water, take my penalty and reload and get on with the day

Niall C

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2015, 09:25:00 AM »
Mark/Tim


Carnoustie is often cited as being penal but I'm not sure it is. It's certainly tough in relation to par but I think that is a different thing all together. Certainly the bunkers are generally as penal as you will get and are nearly always a 1 shot penalty for at least the fairway bunkers. They also generally fit the maxim of refusing to be ignored !


As much as I love Carnoustie, and I do, the one quibble I would have is that by the time I get to those fantastic last 3 holes I've already been beaten up so badly I'm usually in no fit shape to take them on. Great challenge and one I love taking on even if not up to it.


Niall

Paul Gray

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2015, 10:40:46 AM »
Penal and difficult are not synonyms.


Quite right. Let's be clear that they are not related.


Simpson's work at Hayling has been converted somewhat to the penal school. I'd argue that it hasn't really made it any more difficult, just not as good as it was designed to be.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 10:45:38 AM by Paul Gray »
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Jason Thurman

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2015, 11:34:52 AM »
I do consider Carnoustie to be penal and really, really enjoyed playing there, despite scoring appallingly.  I would say the same about Wolf Run.  Penal but a blast.


I've wondered about Wolf Run for a while. It is undeniably tough, and it also has a number of holes that are undeniably straight out of the "penal school" of architecture. 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 12-16, and 18, for example.


At the same time, it also has a number of holes that reflect principles of the strategic school of design. 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 11, 14, 17, and 18 all present meaningful strategic decisions. Notably, some of these holes seem to reflect both schools depending on the lens one views them through.


The degree of difficulty throughout the course is remarkable and relentless, but it also offers meaningful options on at least half of its holes. It is not simply a "hit it here or be punished" course. It's more of a "choose the shot you think you're capable of executing, and then hit it there or be punished." There are certainly players that won't find a realistic option for playing certain holes, most notably the 13th, but it generally gives a player more freedom than most courses with a similarly sadistic personality. I suspect the same might be true of Oakmont, Carnoustie, and Pine Valley, though I haven't played them.
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David_Tepper

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2015, 11:55:07 AM »
"Penal and difficult are not synonyms."

I tend to agree with Adam and Paul. I think it is a mistake to confuse how a course is presented/maintained in terms of the width of the fairways and/or the thickness/length of the rough with the design/architecture of the course.

I have played a number of courses in GB&I. I would describe very few as being penal, aside from the deep/steep bunkers and gorse. Compared to many of the more modern courses you see in the U.S., there are few forced carries and hazard/OB stakes do not often come into play. I can think of modern courses in the San Francisco area that have forced carries and/or hazard/OB stakes on at least half their holes.

Of the 40-50 courses I have played in GB&I, Royal County Down, with a good number of forced carries and blind shots, is probably the most penal course I have come across. Playing one round there without losing a ball remains one of my proudest golfing accomplishments  ;)     
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 12:03:15 PM by David_Tepper »

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2015, 12:01:37 PM »
Mark/Tim


Carnoustie is often cited as being penal but I'm not sure it is. It's certainly tough in relation to par but I think that is a different thing all together. Certainly the bunkers are generally as penal as you will get and are nearly always a 1 shot penalty for at least the fairway bunkers.



NOOOOOO! Difficult is not penal! A penal hazard is one positioned to punish any failure to execute the called-for shot. Where's that famous JH Taylor hole sketch with hazards all over the place. THAT is penal!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2015, 12:13:24 PM »
Eh, I thought that was what I was saying  ???  Clearly I'll never make a wordsmith.


Niall

Mark Pearce

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Re: Oxymoron - Penal School Courses that You Enjoy
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2015, 12:25:26 PM »
Isn't the reality that there is no such thing as a purely strategic or purely penal golf course?  There is a spectrum, and certain courses (Oakmont, TOC) sit nearer the ends than others (Muirfield).

I don't think there's a fairway at Muirfield narrower than 30 yards.  If there is, it's not by much.  Nor is there anywhere where you won't find a ball that misses by up to 5 yards.  Almost every hole offers a choice of tee shot, where the choice taken makes a difference to the difficulty of the next shot, if successfully executed.  Would anyone argue that, in terms of "penality" Carnoustie>Muirfield>TOC?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.