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Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
JK,


can you advise what Doak courses you've played? 


I assume Dismal Red, Ballyneal, PacDunes, Old Mac are on your DoakList... what else?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Can't help but thinking of Barney's thread back in the salad days of GCA inviting folks to join us at Quail Crossing.  The title:    Hillbillies take a poke at Doak.
 
 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 05:00:02 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm still not sure any architect has put as much thought into his greens as guys here.  Or maybe they just do it without thinking like the after thought dudes.... :)    not saying anything wrong with discussing such but not sure Maxwell would even realize he was doing what some think was genius...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
I picked Doak because he teethed on the greens at Crystal Downs. I can't confirm or deny your other accusations but did just complete a 45 hole stroke play best ball at Prairie Dunes and can't quite come to terms why modern greens are not up to that standard. I figured if anyone Doak would be the man best suited to get the job done.


i can't speak for Doak but can't help but think that every green he builds is a tribute to Crystal Downs.


Peter is hitting on something, I do believe that Keiser reminded Doak that Pacific Dunes was a resort course.


John:


I appreciate the compliment in the first paragraph, but I have to correct you on a couple of other things.


1.  I didn't grow up at Crystal Downs.  [Mike DeVries did.]  I saw it the first time when I was a senior in college, and joined as a junior member when I was 27 -- half my lifetime ago. 


2.  The course has had a profound influence on me, but it's not like I hadn't noticed that Oakland Hills, Oakmont, Merion, St. Andrews, Augusta National, and [yes] Prairie Dunes have wild greens, too.


3.  The greens at Pacific Dunes are less severe than a lot of my other courses because Mike Keiser is uncomfortable with difficult greens and asked specifically for that.  So, we made the greens smaller, and put most of the contour at the edges of them [where you often putt up and over the contours from just off the green  ;)  shhhh... ].  I don't generally have concern about building contour into the greens at resort courses [Streamsong Blue, Barnbougle Dunes], and by the same token some of the private courses I've done have some of my more sedate greens [the Old Course at Stonewall, or Dismal River] while others are quite severe [Lost Dunes, Sebonack].  It depends on the project, and what the client is comfortable with.  And, of course, on my mood at the time.


4.  I played in a charity event at Ballyneal last week.  Greens were the fastest they've been all year, according to everyone there ... not super fast, but maybe 11 on the Stimpmeter.  I was deeply into a match and not keeping track, but my caddie kept track of everything, so I can report that I had my best score ever there, with 12 putts on the back nine [and no three-jacks on the day].


5.  Maxwell's greens are so cool because they have a strong back-to-front tilt, broken up by a couple of internal rolls, and they are often crowned from side to side because of the same rolls.  You don't see the same stuff on modern courses very often because having a 3% or 4% back to front tilt is almost impossible with green speeds of 12+.  We did build one green at Sebonack, the 6th, that is pretty much a Maxwell green; it was the first one we finished, and Jack Nicklaus liked it so much that he's been trying to build them ever since.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1

On a deeper level, I would suspect that with his low budgets, Maxwell really did figure he had to defend mostly at the green, which probably cost the same any way he built them while adding bunkers did add cost.  Tom doesn't really have the budget problem, either.


The first sentence is exactly right.  And that's exactly why I started building my greens with the same sort of contour -- because it was the most efficient way to defend the hole.  That's one reason the new course at Forest Dunes cost $3 million to build, and not $5m.  I've been lucky to have some clients who didn't have to worry about the budget, but even Julian Robertson appreciates the bottom line.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Maxwell's green's, those that still exist, pre date the USGA green standard adopted by the civilized world.
If every green was built as if it didn't have tile under it you'd have more Maxwell type greens.

Improvements aren't always so.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Maxwell's green's, those that still exist, pre date the USGA green standard adopted by the civilized world.
If every green was built as if it didn't have tile under it you'd have more Maxwell type greens.



True that, and also true that many of my designs [including Lost Dunes, Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, and Ballyneal] have benefitted from deciding NOT to build USGA greens.


By the same token, Sebonack's greens are all USGA greens, with a plastic liner underneath to boot, and we still managed to include a lot of cool contour in those.  But it's much harder, because you have to do it in triplicate to shape the well and then install the gravel layer and the mix.


I'd still say the MAIN reason you don't see more Maxwell-type greens is because architects are scared to build them knowing what modern green speeds are.  If you think about it, Maxwell was probably the least afraid of the Golden Age designers because places like Kansas and Oklahoma and North Carolina were the last places anyone was going to think about getting the greens fast -- it was the superintendents of those courses who were scared, because keeping bentgrass alive was not easy.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 07:39:09 PM by Tom_Doak »

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,


The greens at Old Town are as fast as anything you'd see on most modern greens that are kept flatish because of their speeds. The greens there do have a bunch of back-to-front slope, but like the rest of the course, everything seems to sit at angles as well. Still, it's their internal contours that make the greens so challenging. And the greens are far more subtle than most of what I've seen of yours at Bandon, Ballyneal, and Sebonack. What I've seen of yours, and agreed that my sample is limited, is of a much bigger scale, with bolder, beefier features. Get in the wrong spots and you know you are dead. At OTC, you can be just as dead, but it's not anywhere near as obvious.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
John K,


Having seen a good portion of Tom's work, I came to the conclusion that much as he appreciates the putting aspect of the game, the complete golf course is usually the star, not the greens or any other specific feature.
Tim Weiman

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's starting to come together. Thanks.

Jackson C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why don't Coore and Crenshaw build greens that are better than many examples by the Maxwell's?
"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

Maybe a better question is why can't you?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

Maybe a better question is why can't you?

Phil,
 
I was wondering why John K can't build a better road that doesn't break down, and need major repairs after 10-15 of normal traffic patterns..   ;D

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kalen,

Google perpetual pavements.  As far as building a green goes I am more in the Raynor camp. Maxwell greens are beyond the scope of linear engineering of which I am sort of a master.

I am bothered by the sense that most golfers think the best greens in the world are those that currently play at higher speeds than designed. 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why don't Coore and Crenshaw build greens that are better than many examples by the Maxwell's?

I do believe they have proven to be able to improve upon an existing Maxwell green. Amazing talent indeed.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why don't Coore and Crenshaw build greens that are better than many examples by the Maxwell's?

I do believe they have proven to be able to improve upon an existing Maxwell green. Amazing talent indeed.


That said, the least interesting green at PD is #14 which I believe is mostly C&C.  Their work on #1 & #2 is great, however.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
#4 at Lost Dunes may be the most contoured green that I have ever played  ???


If not it, then maybe #5 at Old Macdonald .


I am confused by this thread. 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
not saying anything wrong with discussing such but not sure Maxwell would even realize he was doing what some think was genius...
He probably didn't think he was getting calls from Mackenzie, NGLA, Merion, Pine Valley and Augusta because of his salesmanship.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
#4 at Lost Dunes may be the most contoured green that I have ever played  ???


If not it, then maybe #5 at Old Macdonald .


I am confused by this thread.

It's not the contour, it's the contours. If you think you are confused now try studying a Maxwell green without playing it. You'd swear you would never be able to finish and then once the ball starts rolling it all comes into focus.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
not saying anything wrong with discussing such but not sure Maxwell would even realize he was doing what some think was genius...
He probably didn't think he was getting calls from Mackenzie, NGLA, Merion, Pine Valley and Augusta because of his salesmanship.

David,
Explain....
If he was doing what came natural to him why would he think about it as much as this site?  IMHO an architect has his own "eye" for what he wants and goes with it...always picking up on other ideas but still doing his thing...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
not saying anything wrong with discussing such but not sure Maxwell would even realize he was doing what some think was genius...
He probably didn't think he was getting calls from Mackenzie, NGLA, Merion, Pine Valley and Augusta because of his salesmanship.

David,
Explain....
If he was doing what came natural to him why would he think about it as much as this site?  IMHO an architect has his own "eye" for what he wants and goes with it...always picking up on other ideas but still doing his thing...


Maxwell didn't just spring from the head of Zeus, fully formed as a genius greens builder.  He wrote letters to CB Macdonald about how impressed he was with NGLA and how it helped form his views on golf architecture. He also went to Scotland in 1919 and studied the great courses over there. He talked about his design philosophy in 1935 in an interview with American Golfer and Press later talked about how Perry was influenced by working with Mackenzie. 


He was also being called upon by the top organizations in his field to build and rebuild holes and greens?  Do you really think he was unaware as to how his work was being received?  GCA.com didn't invent the term "Maxwell rolls" you know.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

BCowan

Possibly one of the finest threads in the last 5 years.  I encourage all newbies to read this thread front to back twice. 


- throwback Thursdays

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0

Ben,


Internal contouring on a green is the holy grail for architects. In the history of the art form, lots have tried, but only a handful have ever managed to create something close to Maxwell. He manages to find the line between strong forms and subtle features better than all others. I never saw Maxwell as Tom's key influence, so comparing makes no sense. I see more of those contours in Bill's work (2nd Colorado Golf being great example). Tom's comment on crowns and pitch is an amazingly astute observation on why its so hard to do well.


Since it is Masters week, his seven greens stand out there too.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
For a number of years friends and I have used the hill behind the 7th green as a meeting place during the Masters. So I have watched a lot of play on that green. 


The 7th green (one of Maxwell's) doesn't get much attention, but it is one of the most dramatic, yet subtle, greens I've seen or played. I'd guess that any putt longer than 6 or 7 feet has more than one break.


Bob   


 

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bob: Do you think that perhaps all of the bunkers around the green emphasize in your mind how tough the shot is not only because of the bunkers but because of the contours in the green?