Why can't Doak build greens that are better than many examples by the Maxwell's

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't get it.

[Keith OHalloran]

I have never played a Maxwell. What about Maxwell's greens make them better than Sebonack's or Pacifc Dunes?

[John Kavanaugh]

Like I said, I don't get it...but. An argument could be made that the 10th best green at Prairie Dunes is more interesting than any green at Pacific Dunes. I haven't played Sebonack.


The 10th best green at Prairie Dunes was designed by Press, the 11th. I've never seen a long iron approach so diabolically defended by a simple bump.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have played Old Town and it does have really good greens but I would not rate them any better than the greens at Ballyneal.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have never played a Maxwell.
 
What about Maxwell's greens make them better than Sebonack's or Pacifc Dunes?
 
Keith,
 
Are you sure that the greens at Sebonack are exclusively Doak's ?
 
How would you classify the greens at Sebonack in the context of a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being "excellent"

[Aaron Marks]

After playing Ballyneal, I was a little disappointed by the greens at PD.  If I hadn't seen Ballyneals set I may well have been blown away by PD's, but Ballyneal sets a high bar.  I haven't seen any of the Maxwell's greens to bridge the gap between Ballyneal -> Maxwell.  I would argue that if you haven't seen the greens at Ballyneal, you haven't seen Doaks best (or at least the best I've seen).

[Keith OHalloran]

I have never played a Maxwell.
 
What about Maxwell's greens make them better than Sebonack's or Pacifc Dunes?
 
Keith,
 
Are you sure that the greens at Sebonack are exclusively Doak's ?
 
How would you classify the greens at Sebonack in the context of a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being "excellent"

Pat,
No I am not, but Tom one time spelled out who did what where. I suppose I can go and check that thread for the answer.
As for the rating, I think the greens are very good, and present quite a challenge.
You have played far more great golf than I. What would you rate them?

[John Kavanaugh]

Of the Doak greens I have seen I would say that Ballyneal comes the closest to emulating the Maxwell's. I just don't think the greens at Ballyneal are as well suited for modern green speeds. I haven't seen them since they converted to bent.

[Jerry Kluger]

JK: I have to disagree with you about "modern green speeds."  Most of the time the over the top speeds are simply for bragging rights and really have nothing to do with appropriate green speeds. Does anyone really believe that the greens in the UK or Ireland are too slow considering the contours in the greens? I would speculate that most golfers have never played greens that were running 13 or even 12.

[Terry Lavin]

I think you hinted at the "answer" to this provocative question when you referenced the issue of modern green speeds. Maxwells had no such restraints.

[John Kavanaugh]

Oddly enough the beauty of the greens at ANGC are brought out by the extreme by any measure speeds we witness during the Masters.

[Bill Brightly]

I would speculate that most golfers have never played greens that were running 13 or even 12.

I have and I'll tell you this: it is no fun. In fact, it becomes tedious and while I think I am a good enough player and putter to deal with such greens, I think it sucks and I can't wait to get off the course.


I was recently at a charity outing on an old Raynor course. The greens were probably running at 11 but I know they have been faster. During the awards portion of the event, the member who sponsored the event said with pride: " I know some of you struggled with the greens today but expect that or faster next year. Our  course is short and fast greens are the course's only defense."


It's a fun course with lots of elevation change, but a few holes are nearly unplayable at 11-13 stimp readings. I was paired with a 15 handicapper who hit his best shot of the day, a 175 yard rescue club to the middle of the green. It rolled forward a few feet, stopped, then rolled back off the green. His chip was really good, should have been ten feet short of the hole, but it rolled back down to his feet. So sado sad.

[John Kavanaugh]

Bill,


Raynor couldn't build a Maxwell green if he had plans and a photograph. There is not a formula.

[Keith OHalloran]

JK,
When you argued that Prairie Dunes was the true innovator and Coore just copied that, I figured you joined. Now this thread proves you have. Congrats on the new membership, but aren't you also a member of a Doak course? Why did you not pick another living architect?

[Peter Pallotta]

I can only speak in generalities (sadly) and I won't even try to answer the question. I'd only note that the average golfer of Maxwell's time probably had very different expectations than his modern-day counterpart. The whole experience of a round of golf, tee to green, was different back then, and thus so were the expectations. The equipment they played, and the length of the courses they faced relative to this equipment, and what even the better golfers amongst them would routinely shoot and expect to shoot -- well, I'm not sure many of today's "average golfers" would still be playing golf if they were challenged in the same way and to the same degree as their predecessors were. Modern architects, in short, have to take our more sensitive dispositions and ego-centred natures into account. 
Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

I picked Doak because he teethed on the greens at Crystal Downs. I can't confirm or deny your other accusations but did just complete a 45 hole stroke play best ball at Prairie Dunes and can't quite come to terms why modern greens are not up to that standard. I figured if anyone Doak would be the man best suited to get the job done.


i can't speak for Doak but can't help but think that every green he builds is a tribute to Crystal Downs.


Peter is hitting on something, I do believe that Keiser reminded Doak that Pacific Dunes was a resort course.

[Sven Nilsen]

Fairness is a modern concept, particularly espoused by those whose money is on the line.  We'd probably be better off discussing how modern owners impose limitations, rather than the lack of daring by the architect.

[John Kavanaugh]

Plenty of modern architects have offered extreme slopes. Plenty have failed. It's the combination of slope and internal contour that I have not seen mastered in the manner of Maxwell. Even the vaulted Bandon Trails is a failure in comparison when it comes to the use of internal contour.  There is something deeper here.


Please note:  If you want to worship at the altar of Coore and Crenshaw you need to go no further than the transition between the 7th, 1st and 8th at Prairie Dunes. I remain in awe that a great classic course could be so improved by modern hands.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,


Raynor couldn't build a Maxwell green if he had plans and a photograph. There is not a formula.

I can't compare Raynor greens to a Maxwell greens but I'll say this: If Raynor tutored under Maxwell for all those years and saw the courses in Scotland, he sure could have... I was merely responding to Jerry's comments and hinting how today's green speeds would seem to put limiations on what a current architect can do.


Interstingly, Maxwell did a little work at Saucon Valley where I belong. He changed the par 4 11th into a short downhill par three with a superb green. And he made Strong's par three 12th into an excellent par 4 with a biarritz-style green. Both are totally vexing to putt.

[Jim Nugent]

I have no idea if John's premise for this thread is true, though I'm curious to hear others' thoughts.  Even if it is, Maxwell designed some of the very best greens in golf.  So not surpassing them is not a knock -- it's like asking why a composer can't write symphonies better than Mozart or Beethoven. 

But even that is not quite right, because the bottom line is not about building the best greens.  It's about building the best courses.  Tom already has six pretty widely counted as world top 100.  (Here on GCA, probably more.)  I bet he ends his career with at least ten.

Could his greens be even better, which would make his courses better still?  Maybe John or anyone else can give some examples where Tom's greens fall short of the mark, given the sites he designed on, and how he could improve those greens to raise the courses above what they are now. 

[cary lichtenstein]

There was only one Perry Maxwell unfortunately and only ONE John Kavanaugh, thank goodness

[Kalen Braley]

Barney,
 
It would seem you need to expand your horizons and get yourself to RCCC.  The greens there are nothing short of fantastic and the course routing even better!!  I'm guessing its too late to get there this year, but put it on the itinerary for next spring and return and report...

[Jeff_Brauer]

I'll go out on a limb and say Tom doesn't build Maxwell greens because they have already been done......basically, he doesn't want to.

Besides, he has always said his models are the more subtle Scottish greens, not American greens, no matter how good.

Years ago, I did an MP for a Press Maxwell course, and actually even talked to him on the phone once.  He did admit (as Chris Clouser chronicles in his book) that his father was better at green building.  But, in essence, they both built what he called  a series of "one mounders, two mounders, three mounders, and the occaisional four mounders.  He was kind of like Raynor to Mac, not doing a whole lot new, just applying his fathers ideas, but still.......the concept for even Perry M greens was almost as formulaic as RTJ, Dye, me or almost anyone else.

On a deeper level, I would suspect that with his low budgets, Maxwell really did figure he had to defend mostly at the green, which probably cost the same any way he built them while adding bunkers did add cost.  Tom doesn't really have the budget problem, either.

[JC Jones]

The only Doak greens I've played that reminded me of Maxwell greens are his greens at High Pointe.  Everything PacDunes and after seems to be much more overt than Maxwell greens. My experience with Maxwell shows a mix of greens from lacking much internal contour to having extensive internal contour depending on the strategy of the hole. 

[David_Madison]

Just played Old Town (a Maxwell course) this past weekend. I found the greens to have a wonderful subtlety and complexity that I haven't seen pretty much anywhere else. An incredibly varied set of greens, by size, shape, and complexity. But even the simplest greens had lots going on. For example, the third hole had a medium sized green gently tilted back to front at a slight sideways angle. Slightly back of center was a gentle cylindrical shaped bump that was maybe 6' front to back and 20' left to right. That little internal thing turned a simple oval green into something that was incredibly complex and that made the proper placement of your approach shot crucial. I haven't seen that type of simple creativity from anyone else.