Progress?

[Thomas Dai]

Do you prefer to play courses that were made like this? -





Or courses constructed akin to this? -





atb

[Ryan Coles]

The latter 100%.

Same as I'd rather live in a house rather than a cave.

Nice for a day out at places like Minch Old, but you'd much rather be a member of minch new.

*Edited to add 'unless we're discussing Brora'.

[Kalen Braley]

From my own personal experience....
 
Give me the Ass, yoke, and plow solution every time!!! 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Thomas,

When I was President of ASGCA at our Pinehurst meeting in 1995, Danny Maples gave a presentation, including a photo like that one, and his remembrances of actually seeing those as a small boy on his father's construction crews.  He said riding the plow was hard, and sometimes, if they hit a rock or stump, the driver would flip forward into the horse.

I had to remark, that while I never drove a mule or horse team, I still find myself running into a horse's ass on nearly every construction job!

[Paul Gray]

Ryan,

You do realise that the majority of great courses were made in the way seen in the first picture? I may be wrong but I seem to recall you love Sunningdale. Would you really prefer to only play courses built in the last sixty or seventy years?

[Kalen Braley]

Ryan,

You do realise that the majority of great courses were made in the way seen in the first picture? I may be wrong but I seem to recall you love Sunningdale. Would you really prefer to only play courses built in the last sixty or seventy years?

Just to play Devils advocate, I'm sure many in here would be fine only playing the courses at Bandon for the rest of their lives....

[Paul Gray]

Ryan,

You do realise that the majority of great courses were made in the way seen in the first picture? I may be wrong but I seem to recall you love Sunningdale. Would you really prefer to only play courses built in the last sixty or seventy years?

Just to play Devils advocate, I'm sure many in here would be fine only playing the courses at Bandon for the rest of their lives....

Alternatively, most would probably get a bit tired of Celtic Manor though. 

[Peter Pallotta]

I have an old (and an actually old) friend who tells of how disappointed he was when he first started renovating run- down (and originally modest) Victorian and Edwardian homes to find that the workmanship back could be as shoddy as it is today, and even more so. Short-cuts abounded: wiring hastily cut and taped and going nowhere; big gaps in the pre-plaster lathe-work simply stuffed up with newspaper; drains that stopped draining right outside the foundation walls. Which is to say, I don't know if the work (and workmanship) back then was as a rule any better than it is today, and indeed I'd suggest it might have been worse. But I do know, having worked many summers in the construction industry, that I would've much preferred the quiet and pace of horse drawn ploughs and wagons to the rumble of giant diesel-burning machines and dump trucks idling all day long.  Btw, I believe that the courses being built today are, in every way, being built better than ever before.
Peter

[Kalen Braley]

Ryan,

You do realise that the majority of great courses were made in the way seen in the first picture? I may be wrong but I seem to recall you love Sunningdale. Would you really prefer to only play courses built in the last sixty or seventy years?

Just to play Devils advocate, I'm sure many in here would be fine only playing the courses at Bandon for the rest of their lives....

Alternatively, most would probably get a bit tired of Celtic Manor though. 

You're probably right on that one.
 
It would be interesting to tally up all the top notch courses built since WWII and see how that stacks up vs the top ones prior to that...
 
I wonder what the % breakdown would be....

[Marty Bonnar]

Thomas,

When I was President of ASGCA at our Pinehurst meeting in 1995, Danny Maples gave a presentation, including a photo like that one, and his remembrances of actually seeing those as a small boy on his father's construction crews.  He said riding the plow was hard, and sometimes, if they hit a rock or stump, the driver would flip forward into the horse.

I had to remark, that while I never drove a mule or horse team, I still find myself running into a horse's ass on nearly every construction job!

This discussion group really needs a 'like' button. In honour of an old friend, audible yuks, Jeff!

Cheers,
F.

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,

You do realise that the majority of great courses were made in the way seen in the first picture? I may be wrong but I seem to recall you love Sunningdale. Would you really prefer to only play courses built in the last sixty or seventy years?

I also realise the majority of great courses were built on great sites. Sand, heather and dunes.


I was being flippant, but improving construction methods for speed and efficiency, to answer the thread title is progress. If the horse or the dozer is under the wrong guidance, it doesn't really matter though.


I mentioned Minch Old as I know Thomas is very fond of it. I'm less so. The modern courses under the same umbrella win the day in that argument for me.

[Joe Hancock]

I wonder if those preferring the horse draw scoop method would also be in favor of maintenance practices and the machinery from 100 years ago....

Some of the best modern courses will simply be amazing in another 90 years or so...

[Jon Wiggett]

I'll take either method it depends on the quality of the course produced. I do however think there is a tendency to overwork sites these days.

Jon

[Sean_A]

The tools an archie and his team use are irrelevant to me.  All I care about is the product. 


Ciao

[Jim Nugent]

Ryan,

You do realise that the majority of great courses were made in the way seen in the first picture?

I agree.  A flip side to this point is the question: how would those great courses have turned out, if the architects/designers had modern equipment to move earth around with?  They may have succumbed to temptation, and tried to 'improve' more on what the land gave them. 

[Adam Lawrence]

The tools an archie and his team use are irrelevant to me.  All I care about is the product. 

Yes. This is a false dichotomy. Clearly the ability to do large scale earthmoving does create an opportunity to overwork the site. But it's the architect/construction team that does it, not the equipment.


A more interesting construction related question is the extent to which guys using excavators, rather than bulldozers, to build golf course features has contributed to the standard of work being done by top crews nowadays.

[Mark Pearce]

As always Jon, Sean and Adam talking sense.  The bottom line is that both methods have produced great courses and really poor ones.  The differentiator isn't the tools, it's those using them.

[Paul Gray]

As always Jon, Sean and Adam talking sense.  The bottom line is that both methods have produced great courses and really poor ones.  The differentiator isn't the tools, it's those using them.

And that's probably, in my opinion, the perfect summary.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In "Golf Has Never Failed Me" Ross was quoted about liking the wonderful possibilities of the bulldozer.  If the old guys were alive later, they would have changed methods, to be sure, for cost reasons if nothing else.

Not sure exactly what a Ross course built with dozers would be like (although, it would be an interesting study to see what his last few courses looked like, since they had some dozers used)

Would they be like the old guard, not changing while others experimented, like a young RTJ?  Or would they experiment themselves, building bigger lakes, etc.?  Given Ross changed his bunker style at Seminole a bit to "keep up" (although I think not as much as originally surmised) and that his plan for Oakland Hills looked a lot like the one Jones implemented after his death, I think he would literally be trying to keep up with the Jones.

Not unlike current old guard guys are adopting some new wave trends, like jagged bunkering, internal contours popular, I would have to think they would have moved somewhat to modern design.  And some factors, like need for irrigation storage, would drive it as much as design theory.

Of course, none of us can really channel the mind of the dead, so its all speculation.  I do recall Pete Dye, who met Ross at the end of his life, figures Ross would have extended Pinehurst in length to keep up with distance technology......not sure if he got that from Ross, or just assumed it.

[John Kavanaugh]

A nice quote from Ran implying that modern architects just can't help themselves: "The two to four feet folds in the ninth fairway are perfect for golf and remind some of the crumpled fairways at St. Andrews. Sadly, modern earth moving equipment has a way of snuffing out such character, which is one reason why few (if any) modern designs are as engaging to play on a regular basis as" .... (course removed to protect the innocent)

[Paul Gray]

Not unlike current old guard guys are adopting some new wave trends, like jagged bunkering, internal contours popular, I would have to think they would have moved somewhat to modern design.

I would suggest, given that jagged edged bunkering is as old as the game itself, it is the new guys (aka the minimalists) that are reverting to tradition. I suppose many of the old guard from the 80's and 90's are copying the trend though. I'm reminded of that RTJ advertisement recently which challenged the reader to find a water hazard on their latest project. To me, with that advert coming from the heart of the old guard, it summed up the 'back to the future' renaissance better than anything else.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

Jagged edge bunkers may be old as golf, but they are still also a new wave trend......

[Thomas Dai]

Some interesting thoughts and comments. Many thanks.


I imagine steam shovels, traction engines and the like were used at times to construct courses in various parts of the world.


Which courses/architects would be good examples of there use.


To what extent were they used in UK course construction and if so which courses?




atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

"Change is the price of survival."

As reported by Geoff Shack and the Golf Channel, Gary Player said this in an interview about the PGA Tour.  I saw it and immediately thought of this discussion (and of course, Melvyn Morrow's rant against this thread on FB)

We might not like it, but it sounds true.  As I mentioned, Ross would use dozers, if for no other reason than to build courses cheaper.  The market would force him to.

I have mentioned how cheaper plastic drain pipes naturally let us do more drainage.  At some point its just cheaper to mix drains and earthmoving rather than do it all with earthmoving, etc.  Ditto, irrigation meant you had to have irrigation lakes.

What's the old saying? Progress, you can't stop it.

[Mike_Young]

The tools an archie and his team use are irrelevant to me.  All I care about is the product. 

A more interesting construction related question is the extent to which guys using excavators, rather than bulldozers, to build golf course features has contributed to the standard of work being done by top crews nowadays.

Adam has hit on the main thing here.  The excavator and especially the new smaller ones with knuckle buckets along with some of the larger track skid steers have allowed guys to construct similar features to the mule drawn pan and handwork.  However, if the biggest difference in many cases is in the site.  Today it is common for a site to need a complete work over before feature work is begun.  It used to be they just would not use such a site.