Very good courses not included in the Confidential Guide (volumes 1–3 and 5)

[Matt MacIver]

I've played Charleston Muni a few times and think Patriots Point and Rivertowne have a little bit more going on.

[Tom_Doak]

Rees,

With the exception of Aiken (maybe including Aiken, I don't know) do you think any of those would have registered more than a 5?  I'm just wondering if a lot of what they left out was just omitted to keep the amount of 3-5s down.

I would definitely put most of the ones I listed in the 4-5 range, with an occasional 6.  If those atrocious Disney courses, Harder Hall, & Golden Ocala can show up on the list, then most certainly those I listed should show up.

I think I've explained this before, but the book includes every course I've ever gone to see [except the ones that are now closed], for whatever reason.  My parents took me to Hilton Head when I was ten ... those courses are in the book.  I went to Harder Hall when a friend was playing in their Women's Invitational [actually, she won it] many moons ago, so it's in the book. 


I'm sure there are many better courses in Florida, but I just don't have the time [or the interest] to see them all; nowadays I stick to courses that sound cool or different.  I did see four new courses in Florida in January for the book -- Pensacola CC, Capital City Club, Old Memorial and The Dunes -- among 98 new courses in all this year.  It's not like I'm slacking!

[Pete Lavallee]

I returned from an overseas trip to find Vol 2 waiting for me, a great way to get over jet lag!

I am curious though, Tom you gave Torrey So a 3 and Torrey No a 4 in 1985 in the original CG. There is no rating for the So fromyou in Vol 2 with Masa and Darius giving it 5's in 2007. Yet you raised the No to a 5 in 2007. You give the impression you saw the revised So course, why no new rating?

I also think the lack of Barona Creek is a huge omission. For a huge tourist destination like SD, BC is really the must play in the area. Were you aware of it? Also did you try to get a look at Tijuana CC?

I must admit that I really enjoy your golf writing. In fact I think that even if you had never designed a single golf course you would be equally esteemed for the quality of your writing; keep up the good work.

[Scott Weersing]

Ok, which courses are mentioned in Volume 2? Is there a list of the courses?

[Tom_Doak]

Ok, which courses are mentioned in Volume 2? Is there a list of the courses?

Scott:


There are 502 courses in Volume 2.  It's a pretty long list and I don't have it handy.

[Tom_Doak]

I returned from an overseas trip to find Vol 2 waiting for me, a great way to get over jet lag!

I am curious though, Tom you gave Torrey So a 3 and Torrey No a 4 in 1985 in the original CG. There is no rating for the So fromyou in Vol 2 with Masa and Darius giving it 5's in 2007. Yet you raised the No to a 5 in 2007. You give the impression you saw the revised So course, why no new rating?

Pete:


I realized after looking at Google Earth that I had never really seen the South course at Torrey Pines ... it was the North course I walked way back when, and apparently only the North course.  I might have seen a couple of holes on the South course, but I don't know why I gave it a rating when I hadn't seen very much of it.  And I hadn't seen any of it since all the work was done to it before the U.S. Open, so I felt it best to abstain.


My memory of the North course, thirty years after seeing it, is more than a little fuzzy.  I shouldn't have bumped it up from my original review, but I didn't remember it well enough to feel comfortable rating it so far below other reviewers, either.

[Brad Hill]

Are the higher elevations of central/northern Arizona considered summer destinations? If not, this region is missing representation.

[Mark Chaplin]

Vol 1.

Queenwood.
Remedy Oak
Bearwood Lakes

Remedy Oak is a missed opportunity and shows what happens by and large when keen amateurs design courses, it's a Doak 4-5 at best. Queenwood is a 10 for conditioning and a solid 5 for design.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I nominate a matching pair of tough, rugged old moorland tracks of real quality set half an hour apart on either side of the Pennines;

Manchester GC  (Hopwood) - Colt
Huddersfield GC  (Fixby) - Fowler et al

I would suggest that both are a solid Doak 6. Each is the premier course and club in their respective area but for some reason neither gets a lot of mention on here.

Both clubs featured in Darwin 's 1910 book Golf Courses of the British Isles, shortly before Manchester GC relocated from Trafford Park to Hopwood.

[Martin Toal]

Paul


I was pleasantly surprised by Remedy Oak, but the design does not throw up any surprises so from that PoV it met expectations.  There are a few very good holes and no real duds...probably too many water holes though. Plenty of width is on offer with a decent set of greens.  By far my biggest criticism is the long walks between greens and tees...what a serious drag.  I don't know what I would Doak it, but certainly no less than 5.  It may be the best English inland modern course I have seen, but the bar isn't seriously high.  To be honest, Remedy Oak is hard pressed to be any better than Leckford Old!


Ciao

I have played RO a few times and each time have tried to consider if I judged it too harshly in thinking it as a mostly decent course spoiled by several badly judged ones, and each time I conclude I was not wrong.


The three holes I think ruin it are


1. the 2nd, a par 5 dogleg with a water hazard in front, but which effectively focus most players to lay up and neutralises a decent drive;


2. the 8th, little par 4 down a hill over a stream which invites you to hit driver to carry the stream to an elevated green, otherwise it is a 6 iron off the tee


3. the 18th, little par 4 dogleg over water which looks like they designed it back from the green then realised there wasn't enough room for a decent choice of tee shot.


Much of the rest is pleasant and moderately interesting.

[Sean_A]

Yes, I agree, the 2nd is a step too far in rewarding flat bellies with sheer length...not a good hole imo.  That said, I don't mind the 8th...its nothing special, but ok. What I didn't like about 18 was the second shot felt a lot like the 9th...both congested holes.  I would add 12 to a list of weak holes...the weakest on the course because the archie didn't try to do anything.  Its a very blah two-shotter of modest length.  I think Chappers and Adam are right.  If the club had a proper archie on the job from day 1 through finish, the final product would have had a much better chance of being a good course.


Ciao

[Martin Toal]

Yes, I agree, the 2nd is a step too far in rewarding flat bellies with sheer length...not a good hole imo.  That said, I don't mind the 8th...its nothing special, but ok. What I didn't like about 18 was the second shot felt a lot like the 9th...both congested holes.  I would add 12 to a list of weak holes...the weakest on the course because the archie didn't try to do anything.  Its a very blah two-shotter of modest length.  I think Chappers and Adam are right.  If the club had a proper archie on the job from day 1 through finish, the final product would have had a much better chance of being a good course.


Ciao

Sean


That is fair enough. I thought the 8th looked like a hole crammed into the space available between otherwise decent holes, and the 18th probably looked better on paper than it did in real life. I think if 18 had more space on the tee need and more opportunity to choose different tee shot options, then it would be a better hole and the pretty 2nd shot would then be forgivable.


The 12th must have been forgettably bland rather than memorably annoying!

[Adam Lawrence]

I need to remind myself of the details of some of the holes at Remedy Oak, it is a good number of years since I was there.


We have discussed this before on here, but I personally liked the second quite a bit. Probably overly influenced by hitting a beautiful drive and then going just through the back in two with a nice five wood, and it does go against the norm for me -- I am not generally a lover of pond holes -- but I thought the hole was quite pleasing aesthetically and that the length made reaching in two a reasonable proposition for a fairly good proportion of golfers.


I came away, I remember, thinking to myself that there cannot have been many better inland properties made available for golf in the UK in the last fifty years or so, and that some of the detail work was a bit amateurish, for good and bad (there were a few greens, I forget which, that a mainstream golf architect would never have built, but I actually quite liked).


I agree that congestion of the routing seemed something of an issue. This was a bit surprising, as the routing _was_ done by a professional architect.

[Martin Toal]

I need to remind myself of the details of some of the holes at Remedy Oak, it is a good number of years since I was there.


We have discussed this before on here, but I personally liked the second quite a bit. Probably overly influenced by hitting a beautiful drive and then going just through the back in two with a nice five wood, and it does go against the norm for me -- I am not generally a lover of pond holes -- but I thought the hole was quite pleasing aesthetically and that the length made reaching in two a reasonable proposition for a fairly good proportion of golfers.


I came away, I remember, thinking to myself that there cannot have been many better inland properties made available for golf in the UK in the last fifty years or so, and that some of the detail work was a bit amateurish, for good and bad (there were a few greens, I forget which, that a mainstream golf architect would never have built, but I actually quite liked).


I agree that congestion of the routing seemed something of an issue. This was a bit surprising, as the routing _was_ done by a professional architect.

Adam


In my opinion, despite the different designs, the 2nd at RO suffers from the same problem as the 16th at Bearwood Lakes, where I play. The approach to the green needs to carry right on, or else be 100 yards short. Therefore for the average golfer there is a go distance from which they can have a pop, but otherwise there is no advantage in being near (more of a problem at RO than BL), so they end up laying up. So a player who hits a 200 yard drive lays up with a hybrid or 5 wood, and a player who hit a 250 yards drive is still a bit too far away to have a pop, so lays up with a 7 iron. The design doesn't offer a significant advantage for a long drive unless it is a pretty dam long one.


Bearwood Lakes are planning to restore the risk-reward aspect of their 16th by changing the approach into the green, but RO haven't many options. If the atet hazard was not quite so close to the green and made a lay up a less attractive option, it would open more possibilities.


Still, a better hole than the ghastly 8th at RO. Awful hole.

[Paul Dolton]

 

 Ed

You do me a great disservice by mentioning "Taddy" but not Frilford Heath Red or Green. I haven't been to Tadmarton for a good few years and you mention that it is improving, but then the Red course at Frilford has also greatly improved its bunkering in the last year - 3,5,12,13,14,15, and 18 have all been improved by new / changed bunkering. Interestingly, top100golfcourses ranks the courses in Oxfordshire as below:

1. Frilford Heath Red
2. Huntercombe
3. The Oxfordshire
4 Frilford Heath Green
5. Tadmarton Heath
6. Studley Wood
7. Oxford

I know that 6 months ago the Red course was at number 3. I know people on here, not naming any ex pat American names, will scoff at the rakings for Huntercombe and Oxford above. Leaving that aside, the Red course at Frilford is at least as good as many courses that were reviewed in the book - a Doak 5 for me with the improvements which have caused me to now rate it a notch above the Green.
[/quote]



Hi Ed
As a fellow Frilford member I would have to say the changes to the Red course are not all positive. The new bunker on 12 does not fit in with the original bunkers and detracts from the hole. And the new one on 18 is golf architecture with a blunt instrument. They should have mirrored 18th Green course Bunker.
What do you think of new tees on course Ed ? Personally the one on 13 makes the hole two straight shots instead of drawing ball around the corner off the tee, which takes away from the drive.
Did you play course before the blue was built and first four on Red were changed ?

[JC Jones]

My memory of the North course, thirty years after seeing it, is more than a little fuzzy.  I shouldn't have bumped it up from my original review, but I didn't remember it well enough to feel comfortable rating it so far below other reviewers, either.

Is this serious?

[Jud_T]

A little sorry to see no mention of TPC Myrtle Beach.  I'm not normally a huge Fazio fan, but this is a solid test with some very good greens that appear more natural than many of his courses.  It's a Doak 5 IMO and one of the better courses on the Strand as well as generally immaculately maintained.

[JBovay]

I figured it was time to bump this thread. The goal is to identify courses not mentioned in the Confidential Guide that we think deserve a 6 or a 7. ("Definitely worth a game if you're in town", even if you're not "looking for a game".)



Over the summer, I spent some time categorizing and organizing the courses mentioned in this thread. Here is the list, also now included in the first post of the thread:

[JBovay]

Some of the courses came with fairly ambiguous recommendations, some of them were debated herein, and some were mentioned but with the poster rating them (explicitly) a 4 or 5. Again, this is just my best effort to categorize them, and I know I haven't read all of the posts as the poster intended them. Prices, for public courses, were gathered over the summer of 2016.


The following courses were given a strong nomination and seconded. These appear to be the real standouts, among the courses not listed in the books:


** Forfar GC, Angus, Scotland, Old Tom Morris/James Braid £36-39
** Bearwood Lakes GC, Berkshire, England, Guy Hockley and Martin Hawtree


** Aiken GC, South Carolina, John Inglis/James McNair, Jr., $20-25
** Frederica GC, St. Simons Island, Georgia, Tom Fazio
** Timuquana CC, Jacksonville, Florida, Donald Ross/Bobby Weed
** Sara Bay CC, Sarasota, Florida, Donald Ross
** Barona Creek, San Diego County, California, Todd Eckenrode, $80-160


********************************************************************
Now, sorted by geography, according to the following symbols:


** Given a strong nomination and seconded
*   Given a single strong nomination
!    Inspired some debate
?  Ambiguous recommendations
/   "5 or 6"
5  "5"


===== Volume 1 ======


~~~~~ Scotland ~~~~~~


? Elgin GC, Moray, £40-45
? Duff House Royal GC, Aberdeenshire, Alister MacKenzie, £23-50
** Forfar GC, Angus, Old Tom Morris/James Braid £36-39
? Cawder GC, Glasgow, James Braid, £45
? Ranfurly Castle GC, Renfrewshire, Andrew Kirkaldy and Willie Auchterlonie/James Braid, £40-50


~~~~~ England ~~~~~~


* Huddersfield GC, Yorkshire, Tom Dunn/Sandy Herd/Herbert Fowler/Alister MacKenzie/Fred Hawtree/Donald Steel/Cameron Sinclair, £30-40


* Manchester GC, Harry Colt, £?
? Fairhaven GC, Lancashire, J.A. Steer and James Braid/Dave Thomas/Donald Steel, £?
* Prestbury GC, Cheshire, Harry Colt, £33-65
* South Staffs GC, Staffordshire, Harry Vardon/Harry Colt/James Braid/Donald Steel, £43


* Blackwell GC, Worcestershire, Herbert Fowler and Tom Simpson, £50-90
* Cleeve Hill GC, Gloucestershire, £10-20
/ Bath GC, Tom Dunn/J.H. Taylor/James Braid/Harry Colt, £15-50
! Tadmarton Heath GC, Oxfordshire, C.K. Hutchison, £25-60
5 Frilford Heath GC (Red), Oxfordshire, J.H. Taylor, £36-80
5 Huntercombe GC, Oxfordshire, Willie Park Junior, £30-90
5 The Oxfordshire GC, Rees Jones, £50-80
5 Frilford Heath GC (Green), Oxfordshire, J.H. Turner and C.K. Cotton, £36-80
5 Studley Wood GC, Oxfordshire, Simon Gidman, £25-60
5 Oxford GC, Oxfordshire, James Braid/Harry Colt, £15-35


5 Ipswich GC (Purdis Heath), Suffolk, James Braid, £40-60
5 Woodbridge GC (Heath), Suffolk, James Braid, £40-55


* Knole Park GC, Kent, J.F. Abercromby, £?
? Chart Hills GC, Kent, Nick Faldo, £33-95
? East Sussex National, Bob Cupp, £25-70
5 Worthing GC (Lower), Harry Colt, £25-60


** Bearwood Lakes GC, Berkshire, Guy Hockley and Martin Hawtree


5 Blackmoor GC, Hampshire, Harry Colt, £?
5 Brokenhurst Manor, Hampshire, Harry Colt, £40-70
* Cumberwell Park GC, Orange nine, Wiltshire, Adrian Stiff, £25-45 for 18 holes
! Remedy Oak GC, Dorset, John Jacobs, £95


~~~~~ Wales ~~~~~~~~


? Welshpool GC, James Braid, £12-30
? Llandrindod Wells GC, Harry Vardon/James Braid, £15-35


~~~~~ Isle of Man ~~~~~


* Castletown Golf Links, Old Tom Morris/Mackenzie Ross, £35-65


===== Volume 2 ======


~~~~~ North Carolina ~~


? Hope Valley CC, Durham, Donald Ross/Perry Maxwell/Dan Maples/John LaFoy/Brian Silva
? Forsyth CC, Winston-Salem, Donald Ross
? Sedgefield CC, Greensboro, Donald Ross
? Greensboro CC (Farm Course), Donald Steel
? Myers Park CC, Charlotte, Donald Ross
? Old North State Club, New London, Tom Fazio


~~~~~ South Carolina ~~


5 TPC Myrtle Beach, Tom Fazio, £75-130
! The Muni, Charleston, Johnny Adams, $10-24
? CC of Spartanburg, Donald Ross
** Aiken GC, John Inglis/James McNair, Jr., $20-25


~~~~~ Georgia ~~~~~~~


** Frederica GC, St. Simons Island, Tom Fazio
* Old Toccoa Farm, Dan Proctor & Dave Axland, $45-55
/ Currahee Club, Toccoa, Jim Fazio


~~~~~ Florida ~~~~~~~~


** Timuquana CC, Jacksonville, Donald Ross/Bobby Weed
? Palatka GC, Donald Ross/Bobby Weed, $17-23
? Ocala GC, Ron Garl, $13-27
? Deltona Club, David Wallace/Bobby Weed, $15-30
? Victoria Hills GC, DeLand, Ron Garl,  $29-59
? Mission Inn Resort (El Campeon), George O'Neil and Charles E. Clarke, $75-150
? CC of Orlando, Donald Ross
** Sara Bay CC, Sarasota, Donald Ross
* Hide Out GC, Naples, Kelly Blake Moran
? West Palm Beach GC, Dick Wilson, $15-31


~~~~~ Tennessee ~~~~~


? The Country Club, Morristown


~~~~~ California ~~~~~~


? Santa Anita GC, Los Angeles, James Harrison Smith, $13-39
? Porcupine Creek GC, Rancho Mirage, Tim Blixseth and Tom Weiskopf
* The Madison Club, La Quinta, Tom Fazio
* Rams Hill Golf Club, San Diego County, Tom Fazio/Tim Jackson and David Kahn, $75-150
** Barona Creek GC, San Diego County, Todd Eckenrode, $80-160
? Tijuana CC, Alister MacKenzie, $?


~~~~~ Hawaii ~~~~~~~~


* The Club at Kukui'ula, Kau'ai, Tom Weiskopf
* Puakea GC, Kau'ai, Robin Nelson, $45-85

[Tom_Doak]

JBovay:  Thanks for this, I'm always interested to see where other people recommend that I go, on the rare occasion that I have time.  In fact, just three weeks ago, I managed to go play Cleeve Cloud and Minchinhampton Old, and also make a quick walk around Blackwell.


[Also, one correction to your list:  Huntercombe is reviewed in Volume 1.]


You could wind up with a long list for Volume 3 ... even though we reviewed 660+ courses, of which probably 500 were worthy, that must leave 5,000+ courses in this region that we didn't see!  I'm sure there are a ton of them that are worth a game.  But if there are any that really deserve a 6 or a 7, by all means, we'd love to hear about them.

[Ken Fry]

Tom,

In the South Bend, Indiana area I'd offer South Bend Country Club.  I would call it a very solid 6.  If you pass through this part of the world I'd love to show it to you.

Ken

[BShannon]

In Chicago - Knollwood, Exmoor, Butterfield

[Brad Tufts]

I think South Bend could be a 6.  It's no better or worse than Warren, in my opinion.

Of those consolidated above that I have visited, I agree with Lavallee that Barona is probably the most obvious candidate for a 7.  Sedgefield and Hope Valley could be 6s on a good day (I like HV more), but more likely 5s.  Old North State is nice but an uneventful modern Fazio, no more than a 5.

Kukui'ula has its spots but also probably a 5 in the grand scheme...there are certainly a few holes with strategy, and the land is pretty darn good.  I have not played Puakea, but a couple of my family members have...I'm told it's in the 4-5 range, not as good as Kukui'ula.  A few great jungle holes are offset by a bunch of open modern-mounded holes going back and forth behind a COSTCO...a good value to get away from the pricey resort courses on Kauai, but not great golf.

I take issue with the suggestion of Aiken GC as a potential 7.  This is a GCA darling due to its history, extreme value (mid-$20s), and increased playability...I played 36 holes there during the Dixie Cup a few years back so I know it pretty well.  The fact that it's a great value and has some good holes doesn't change the fact that it's half the course that Palmetto is!  I'd call it a 5 at best, or whatever # is reserved for courses that are too short for modern tourney golf....4?

Edit...forgot I had played Deltona and Victoria Hills too...I'd say Deltona straddles that 5/6 line, while VH is definitely a 4 or 5

[Ian Mackenzie]

In Chicago - Knollwood, Exmoor, Butterfield

Indeed...Western Amateur was at Knollwood this year and it was at Exmoor 2-3 years ago.
USGA Mid-Am also at Knollwood (and Conway Farms) in 2013.


Also:


Evanston (Ross)
Bryn Mawr (Langford/Morreau)


Easy to nit-pick, but still love the CG series!!

[JJShanley]

(Here I go, like a grad student, telling the accomplished authors how to publish...)


Did you ever consider breaking The Americas: Summer Locations into two volumes?  Perhaps North East of U.S. plus eastern Canada, with the Northwest Territories in a separate volume?  I've enjoyed much of the public golf I've play in Michiana, and hope that other GCAers can do the same.


I just want more of a good thing.


(I'll provide a copy of my dissertation for you all to rag on in due course.  Fair's fair.)