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JBovay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom Doak and his coauthors do a great job of identifying courses to visit in the vicinity of other, more famous courses, and bringing to light very interesting courses that are generally under the radar. However, it takes considerable effort to visit even 100 golf courses (much less 1,000), and as a result, they are only going to touch about 10% of courses in the world. I am fairly certain that they'll hit all of the very best golf courses in the world in the next couple of years, but they're inevitably going to miss some of the very good ones.


What very good courses ("definitely worth a game if you're in town [and not even 'looking for a game']") have been omitted from the first two volumes of the newest edition of the CG?


For those who read quickly--I am hoping to start a list of proposed 6s and 7s, in line with Tom's scoring in the books. Note that courses in regions with snow are going to be reviewed in Volume 3.


Here's my submission:


Timuquana CC, Jacksonville, Florida: 6 [2001ish]. It was definitely worth driving 100 miles from my Florida home to see Timuquana back then, but I admit that I've tended to score Florida courses a little bit generously relative to Tom et al. and that my memory of the place is fading. I loved the challenge of Ross's design on this dead-flat property, winding through the oaks, where getting out of position meant hitting precise recovery shots to greens elevated well above their surrounds.





**********************************************************************************************
UPDATE:


Some of the courses came with fairly ambiguous recommendations, some of them were debated herein, and some were mentioned but with the poster rating them (explicitly) a 4 or 5. Again, this is just my best effort to categorize them, and I know I haven't read all of the posts as the poster intended them. Prices, for public courses, were gathered sometime since 2016.


The following courses were given a strong nomination and seconded. These appear to be the real standouts, among the courses not listed in the books:


** Forfar GC, Angus, Scotland, Old Tom Morris/James Braid £36-39
** Prestbury GC, Cheshire, England, Harry Colt, £33-65
** Bearwood Lakes GC, Berkshire, England, Guy Hockley and Martin Hawtree
** Cumberwell Park GC, Orange nine, Wiltshire, England, Adrian Stiff, £25-45 for 18 holes
** Welshpool GC, Wales, James Braid, £12-30
** Castletown Golf Links, Isle of Man, Old Tom Morris/Mackenzie Ross, £35-65

** Aiken GC, South Carolina, John Inglis/James McNair, Jr., $20-25
** Frederica GC, St. Simons Island, Georgia, Tom Fazio
** Timuquana CC, Jacksonville, Florida, Donald Ross/Bobby Weed
** Sara Bay CC, Sarasota, Florida, Donald Ross
** Hide Out GC, Naples, Kelly Blake Moran
** San Clemente Municipal GC, Orange County, William P. Bell, $14-44
** Barona Creek, San Diego County, California, Todd Eckenrode, $80-160
** Marine Memorial GC, Camp Pendleton, San Diego County, William P. Bell, $7-40

** Berkshire CC, Reading, Pennsylvania, Willie Park Jr.
** South Bend CC, Indiana, George O'Neil
** Knollwood Club, Lake Forest, Illinois, C.H. Alison
** Exmoor CC, Highland Park, Illinois, Donald Ross
** Bandon Crossings, Bandon, Oregon, Dan Hixson, $34-84

********************************************************************
Now, sorted by geography, according to the following symbols:


** Given a strong nomination and seconded
*   Given a single strong nomination
!    Inspired some debate
?  Ambiguous recommendations
/   "5 or 6"
5  "5"


===== Volume 1 ======

~~~~~ Scotland ~~~~~~

? Elgin GC, Moray, £40-45
* Cruden Bay GC, St. Olaf 9, Old Tom Morris/Tom Simpson and Herbert Fowler, £15-35
? Duff House Royal GC, Aberdeenshire, Alister MacKenzie, £23-50
** Forfar GC, Angus, Old Tom Morris/James Braid £36-39
? Cawder GC, Glasgow, James Braid, £45
? Ranfurly Castle GC, Renfrewshire, Andrew Kirkaldy and Willie Auchterlonie/James Braid, £40-50

~~~~~ England ~~~~~~

* Huddersfield GC, Yorkshire, Tom Dunn/Sandy Herd/Herbert Fowler/Alister MacKenzie/Fred Hawtree/Donald Steel/Cameron Sinclair, £30-40

* Manchester GC, Harry Colt, £20-65
? Fairhaven GC, Lancashire, J.A. Steer and James Braid/Dave Thomas/Donald Steel, £50-110
** Prestbury GC, Cheshire, Harry Colt, £33-65
* Sandiway GC, Cheshire, Ted Ray and Sidney Collins, £30-70
* South Staffs GC, Staffordshire, Harry Vardon/Harry Colt/James Braid/Donald Steel, £43

* Sandwell Park, West Midlands, Harry Colt, £38-45
/ Bath GC, Tom Dunn/J.H. Taylor/James Braid/Harry Colt, £15-50
! Tadmarton Heath GC, Oxfordshire, C.K. Hutchison, £25-60
5 Frilford Heath GC (Red), Oxfordshire, J.H. Taylor, £36-80
5 The Oxfordshire GC, Rees Jones, £50-80
5 Frilford Heath GC (Green), Oxfordshire, J.H. Turner and C.K. Cotton, £36-80
5 Studley Wood GC, Oxfordshire, Simon Gidman, £25-60
5 Oxford GC, Oxfordshire, James Braid/Harry Colt, £15-35

5 Ipswich GC (Purdis Heath), Suffolk, James Braid, £40-60
5 Woodbridge GC (Heath), Suffolk, James Braid, £40-55

* Knole Park GC, Kent, J.F. Abercromby, £40-75
? Chart Hills GC, Kent, Nick Faldo, £33-95
? East Sussex National, Bob Cupp, £25-70
5 Worthing GC (Lower), Harry Colt, £25-60

** Bearwood Lakes GC, Berkshire, Guy Hockley and Martin Hawtree

5 Blackmoor GC, Hampshire, Harry Colt, £45-70
5 Brokenhurst Manor, Hampshire, Harry Colt, £40-70
** Cumberwell Park GC, Orange nine, Wiltshire, Adrian Stiff, £25-45 for 18 holes
! Remedy Oak GC, Dorset, John Jacobs, £95

~~~~~ Wales ~~~~~~~~

** Welshpool GC, James Braid, £12-30
? Llandrindod Wells GC, Harry Vardon/James Braid, £15-35

~~~~~ Northern Ireland ~

* Castlerock GC, Bann 9, Frank Pennink, £10-20

~~~~~ Isle of Man ~~~~

** Castletown Golf Links, Old Tom Morris/Mackenzie Ross, £35-65

~~~~~ Jersey ~~~~~~~

* Royal Jersey GC, F.W. Brewster and others, £60-90
* La Moye GC, George Boomer/James Braid/Henry Cotton, £75

===== Volume 2 ======

~~~~~ North Carolina ~~

! Hope Valley CC, Durham, Donald Ross/Perry Maxwell/Dan Maples/John LaFoy/Brian Silva
? Forsyth CC, Winston-Salem, Donald Ross
/ Sedgefield CC, Greensboro, Donald Ross
? Greensboro CC (Farm Course), Donald Steel
? Myers Park CC, Charlotte, Donald Ross
5 Old North State Club, New London, Tom Fazio

~~~~~ South Carolina ~~

5 TPC Myrtle Beach, Tom Fazio, $75-130
! The Muni, Charleston, Johnny Adams, $10-24
? CC of Spartanburg
! Aiken GC, John Inglis/James McNair, Jr., $20-25
* Midland Valley, Ellis Maples, $28-38

~~~~~ Georgia ~~~~~~~

** Frederica GC, St. Simons Island, Tom Fazio
* Old Toccoa Farm, Dan Proctor & Dave Axland, $45-55
/ Currahee Club, Toccoa, Jim Fazio

~~~~~ Florida ~~~~~~~~

** Timuquana CC, Jacksonville, Donald Ross/Bobby Weed
? Palatka GC, William D. Clark/Bobby Weed, $17-23
? Ocala GC, Ron Garl, $13-27
/ Deltona Club, David Wallace/Bobby Weed, $15-30
! Victoria Hills GC, DeLand, Ron Garl,  $29-59
? Mission Inn Resort (El Campeon), George O'Neil and Charles E. Clarke, $75-150
? CC of Orlando
* Streamsong (Black), Gil Hanse, $85-$275
** Sara Bay CC, Sarasota, Donald Ross
** Hide Out GC, Naples, Kelly Blake Moran
? West Palm Beach GC, Dick Wilson, $15-31

~~~~~ Tennessee ~~~~~

? The Country Club, Morristown, William Langford

~~~~~ California ~~~~~~

? Santa Anita GC, Los Angeles, James Harrison Smith, $13-39
** San Clemente Municipal GC, Orange County, William P. Bell, $14-44
? Porcupine Creek GC, Rancho Mirage, Tim Blixseth and Tom Weiskopf
* The Madison Club, La Quinta, Tom Fazio
* Rams Hill Golf Club, San Diego County, Tom Fazio/Tim Jackson and David Kahn, $75-150
** Barona Creek GC, San Diego County, Todd Eckenrode, $80-160
** Marine Memorial GC, Camp Pendleton, San Diego County, William P. Bell, $7-40

~~~~~ Hawaii ~~~~~~~~

/ The Club at Kukui'ula, Kau'ai, Tom Weiskopf
! Puakea GC, Kau'ai, Robin Nelson, $45-85

~~~~~ Mexico ~~~~~~~~

? Tijuana CC, William P. Bell, $?

===== Volume 3 =====

~~~~~ Massachusetts ~~

* Hyannisport Club, Alex Findlay/Donald Ross/Ron Forse
5 Tedesco CC, Marblehead, Skip Wogan

~~~~~ Connecticut ~~~~

* Keney Park, Hartford, Devereux Emmet/Robert "Jack" Ross/Matthew Dusenberry, $30-44

~~~~~ Pennsylvania ~~~

** Berkshire CC, Reading, Willie Park Jr.
* Schuylkill CC, Orwigsubrg, Willie Park Jr./Donald Ross

~~~~~ Virginia ~~~~~~~~

? Williamsburg GC, William F. Gordon/John LaFoy

~~~~~ Indiana ~~~~~~~~

** South Bend CC, George O'Neil

~~~~~ Illinois ~~~~~~~~~

** Knollwood Club, Lake Forest, C.H. Alison
** Exmoor CC, Highland Park, Donald Ross
* Butterfield CC, Oak Brook, William Langford
* Evanston GC, Skokie, Donald Ross/Ron Prichard
* Bryn Mawr CC, Lincolnwood, William Langford

~~~~~ Minnesota ~~~~~~

* Town and Country Club, St. Paul, George McCree and E.J. Frost/Robert Foulis

~~~~~ Missouri ~~~~~~~

* Swope Memorial GC, Kansas City, A.W. Tillinghast, $17-34

~~~~~ Washington ~~~~~

* Aldarra GC, Sammamish, Tom Fazio

~~~~~ Oregon ~~~~~~~~

** Bandon Crossings, Bandon, Dan Hixson, $34-84
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 01:23:46 PM by JBovay »

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Forfar GC, Angus heathland course, about 15 miles from Carnoustie.  Originally laid out by Tom Morris in 1871 with alterations being made in 1926 by James Braid.  Twice the venue for the Scottish PGA Championship, the Scottish Boys Stroke Play and the Girls Home Internationals.  It's reportedly uniformly well-maintained, but I'm afraid I'm limited to one visit in October 2013, which was a delight.  My caddie, a pro hired at Carnoustie, spoke highly of it as well.

JStewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good choice. A solid course and I'd give it an edge over another well-respected Ross layout in FL -- Sara Bay in Sarasota.


Timuquana is more interesting and varied tee-to-green. SB gets a bit monotonous, though it has the more difficult set of greens.

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Hideout in Naples, FL. Very fun course (though not sure how the authors will feel about the the flattish but lightning quick greens); nice, laid back vibe for the club too. I would go back in a heartbeat.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Vol 1.

Queenwood.
Remedy Oak
Bearwood Lakes

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
VOL I - in order of quality

Blackwell
Castletown
Prestbury (I think Doak would really enjoy this place)
Knole Park
The Grove
Cleeve Cloud
Cumberwell Park Orange

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 08:08:27 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0

A couple of courses not mentioned in Vol I nor highlighted as one's the 4 Amigo's would like to visit in the future -


South Staffs at Wolverhampton - a very fine parkland, long and tough too.
Tadmarton Heath near Banbury - heathland gem that is constantly improving with bunkering etc upgrades, short on the card but tight and tricky without care


atb




Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Forfar GC, Angus heathland course, about 15 miles from Carnoustie.  Originally laid out by Tom Morris in 1871 with alterations being made in 1926 by James Braid.  Twice the venue for the Scottish PGA Championship, the Scottish Boys Stroke Play and the Girls Home Internationals.  It's reportedly uniformly well-maintained, but I'm afraid I'm limited to one visit in October 2013, which was a delight.  My caddie, a pro hired at Carnoustie, spoke highly of it as well.


Good grief, someone else that has been to Forfar ! I played there a few years ago and was also amazed at how good it was. My mad ravings on here about it persuaded Jeff Warne to play it on his most recent trip to Scotland and I was delighted to join him. Second time round it was still a joy and the use of land forms was terrific. One thing I did notice second time round, or perhaps more accurate to say I remembered when I played it again, was that in trying to eek out as much distance as they could and putting back tees as far as they could due to boundary constraints etc, they have inadvertantly made quite a few of the par 4's of a similar distance which is a wee bit unfortunate but still some great golf. I'd love to read what Tom and his chums thought of it.


Niall

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Would Fairhaven fall into this category?  I guess I'll find out next week.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0

A couple of courses not mentioned in Vol I nor highlighted as one's the 4 Amigo's would like to visit in the future -


South Staffs at Wolverhampton - a very fine parkland, long and tough too.
Tadmarton Heath near Banbury - heathland gem that is constantly improving with bunkering etc upgrades, short on the card but tight and tricky without care


atb

You do me a great disservice by mentioning "Taddy" but not Frilford Heath Red or Green. I haven't been to Tadmarton for a good few years and you mention that it is improving, but then the Red course at Frilford has also greatly improved its bunkering in the last year - 3,5,12,13,14,15, and 18 have all been improved by new / changed bunkering. Interestingly, top100golfcourses ranks the courses in Oxfordshire as below:

1. Frilford Heath Red
2. Huntercombe
3. The Oxfordshire
4 Frilford Heath Green
5. Tadmarton Heath
6. Studley Wood
7. Oxford

I know that 6 months ago the Red course was at number 3. I know people on here, not naming any ex pat American names, will scoff at the rakings for Huntercombe and Oxford above. Leaving that aside, the Red course at Frilford is at least as good as many courses that were reviewed in the book - a Doak 5 for me with the improvements which have caused me to now rate it a notch above the Green.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
On an earlier thread about CG Volume 1, I had suggested that the Scotland section could do with more inland courses. Undoubtedly they aren't going to really rival the great Scottish links but IMHO there are a number of inland courses that would compete with the second tier links. Some suggestions;


Elgin
Duff House Royal
Forfar (as mentioned above)
Ranfurly Castle
Cawder

That said, no idea how Tom and his colleagues would rate them.

Niall

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
As a fan of Frilfords Red and Green courses I can't disagree with you Ed.


You need to get along to Tadmarton Heath asap - nice and dry and sandy with a friendly winter rate/county card and all that. The course is really moving forward - they are currently about half way through a complete upgrade of all the bunkering including re-positioning numerous bunkers that new technology had overtaken. Cracking olde worldy clubhouse to, which they are planning to enhance for their forthcoming 100th anniversary, and fabulous pies and cakes and grub generally served through a hatch in the bar.


Some terrific new photos here - http://www.tadmartongolf.com/the-club/


I've only played 4 of the 7 mentioned in your listing and like all 4 of them.


Here are a couple of others for folks to ponder - (drip-feed time) -

Welshpool - yee olde hilltop James Braid - http://www.welshpoolgolfclub.co.uk/pages.php/index.html

Llandrindod Wells - yee olde hilltop Harry Vardon later modified by James Braid - http://www.lwgc.co.uk/index.php

atb

Cory Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
A few Ross courses in NC worthy of Volume 2:


Hope Valley
Forsyth
Myers Park
Biltmore Forest-this one could be in Volume 3 if Asheville is considered a summer destination.
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
As a fan of Frilfords Red and Green courses I can't disagree with you Ed.


You need to get along to Tadmarton Heath asap - nice and dry and sandy with a friendly winter rate/county card and all that. The course is really moving forward - they are currently about half way through a complete upgrade of all the bunkering including re-positioning numerous bunkers that new technology had overtaken. Cracking olde worldy clubhouse to, which they are planning to enhance for their forthcoming 100th anniversary, and fabulous pies and cakes and grub generally served through a hatch in the bar.


Some terrific new photos here - http://www.tadmartongolf.com/the-club/


I did actually play in a club social match against Tadmarton this year. Whilst this was at Frilford I will definitely try and play in the away fixture next year. In that match I did get the great pleasure, for me as a fan, of playing against Oxford United legend Les Robinson who was a lovely guy. I mentioned that I hadn't seen him play many times but had been at a game against Portsmouth at Fratton Park where he rifled a diving header from outside the box into the top corner - just at the wrong end. Comfortably the best own goal I've ever seen. He was not best pleased - "1 own goal in 700 games and you had to have been at that one!"

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Volume 2- Barona Creek: Casino course just east of San Diego designed by Todd Eckenrode that's well worth seeking out.  Probably Doak 6ish, but seems even better given the relatively paltry competition in the area.  I'd play here virtually every time vs. battling the cost and crowds at Torrey Pines.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would liked to have seen Sedgefield Ross course, Greensboro Farm Course, Old North State, CC of Spartanburg, and Forsyth.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 11:21:03 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Forfar GC, Angus heathland course, about 15 miles from Carnoustie.  Originally laid out by Tom Morris in 1871 with alterations being made in 1926 by James Braid.  Twice the venue for the Scottish PGA Championship, the Scottish Boys Stroke Play and the Girls Home Internationals.  It's reportedly uniformly well-maintained, but I'm afraid I'm limited to one visit in October 2013, which was a delight.  My caddie, a pro hired at Carnoustie, spoke highly of it as well.


Good grief, someone else that has been to Forfar ! I played there a few years ago and was also amazed at how good it was. My mad ravings on here about it persuaded Jeff Warne to play it on his most recent trip to Scotland and I was delighted to join him. Second time round it was still a joy and the use of land forms was terrific. One thing I did notice second time round, or perhaps more accurate to say I remembered when I played it again, was that in trying to eek out as much distance as they could and putting back tees as far as they could due to boundary constraints etc, they have inadvertantly made quite a few of the par 4's of a similar distance which is a wee bit unfortunate but still some great golf. I'd love to read what Tom and his chums thought of it.


Niall

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ryan,

Queenswood is in. It gets a 5 and a 6.

I know Sean played Remedy Oak on Sunday and will be interested to hear his thoughts. It's not a course I've been too eager to see but I know of a couple of people who know their architecture who suggest it's at the better end of mediocre.

Moving on, 6 or 7 might be a stretch but I'll recommend Blackmoor, Purdis Heath (Ipswich) and Woodbridge as 5's. Depending on renovation, Brockenhurst Manor could also be worth a look. And Worthing?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 05:59:52 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Did Aiken GC make it?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Volume 2:


The Madison Club

Rams Hill
Barona Creek
The Club at Kukui'ula (Kauai)
Puakea (Kauai)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Paul

I was pleasantly surprised by Remedy Oak, but the design does not throw up any surprises so from that PoV it met expectations.  There are a few very good holes and no real duds...probably too many water holes though. Plenty of width is on offer with a decent set of greens.  By far my biggest criticism is the long walks between greens and tees...what a serious drag.  I don't know what I would Doak it, but certainly no less than 5.  It may be the best English inland modern course I have seen, but the bar isn't seriously high.  To be honest, Remedy Oak is hard pressed to be any better than Leckford Old!

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 08:09:26 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ballyhack
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Did Aiken GC make it?

Unfortunately not.

I'd also throw out Frederica GC.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Vol 1.

Queenwood.
Remedy Oak
Bearwood Lakes


Ryan,


Queenwood is profiled on page 104.


TK

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Biltmore Forest and Ballyhack will both be profiled in Volume 3, though I myself have yet to see either of them.