[MClutterbuck]

It depends where you play. In my area of the world, individual medal play and fourball account for 50 out 52 weeks.


In this context, Pat's question is very true. In fact, at my club we are altering the par 3 second hole for exactly that reason. 200 yards from the back tees over water to a shallow green in the middle, back to front slope and a strong bank towards the water.


The back tees were never used in competition. Three Argentine Opens, one Argentine Amateur and other international events chose the 175 yard tee instead.


Nearly perfect tee shots were rolling back into the water. For less acomplished players, quite good but not perfect shots were hitting the bank and into the water. Also, a downhill back bunker shot back into the green also carried significant water danger.


The fact is the hole is penal, and given it is the second hole, and medal play is by far the most play at the club, it was decided to shorten the lake 22 feet and add a retaining bunker. This will encourage more direct shots at the pin and reduce penalties for sure. Even if the bunker shot will not be easy over the bank.

[Niall C]

MClutterbuck


The assumption I make from your post is that you assume hard/penal equates to matchplay golf. Why ? Could they not just be making the hole easier because the members don't like it so hard ?


If penal equates to matchplay then where does strategy come into it ? By that I mean the strategy employed in playing against your opponent ie. playing conservative if ahead etc.


Niall

[Rob Marshall]

Yes Pat, gradually and persistently for the last 150 years...ever since they decided to play the Open Championship at medal play.

One of these centuries it will matter.

I was going to ask when the emphasis was on match play, 1850?

Wow. Just wow. 

On any given day, millions of golfers head out to the course and play the game.  A teeny, tiny sliver of them on any given day are playing for a medal.  The vast, majority are playing matches of some sort.   

So when Pat uses the word emphasis, he is being precise.  It's not as if match play doesn't exist among actual, real golfers.   Rather, it's that the dopes who purport to speak for "the game" and have the loudest megaphones when purporting to speak for "the game" all think almost exclusively in terms of medal play and consider match play a quaint anachronism to be honored a couple times a year, like war veterans or spouses. 

All that highlights to me is how TOTALLY OUT OF TOUCH the game's self-appointed mouthpieces are with the ACTUAL game of golf - because the actual game of golf is not run by bureaucrats in Far Hills and it's not written about by failed sportswriters in Orlando.  It's not played on TV on famous courses.  Nor is it played behind ropes.  And nobody gets a medal....

It's played by John Doe against Jim Smith and other guys you've never heard of on a course nobody more than 20 miles away has ever heard of, and at the end of their match, they shake hands -- without a trophy wife flying out of the crowd to give the winner the Heimlich.  That is REAL golf.  And it ain't played at medal play except in the delusional minds of the handful of idiots who have run "the game" (their version, not mine). into the ground. 

My version (which is the vast majority's version) is doing just fine - and it's played at match play.

David, I understand what you are saying but.......... When I play, even if I have a side match with someone I'm paired with I'm still playing medal play. I'm posting a score. I'm also playing in the club sweeps which is medal. If my opponent pumps 3 balls OB I'm still playing the hole out myself. What do you do pick up and walk to the next hole? I think very few golfers play true match play. Do you only play when you have a match?

The challenge of golf has always been for me to play the course not an individual.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wow. Just wow. 

On any given day, millions of golfers head out to the course and play the game. A teeny, tiny sliver of them on any given day are playing for a medal.  The vast, majority are playing matches of some sort.   

That's absolutely false.
Everyone of them is supposed to post their score for handicap purposes, ergo, medal play.
So when Pat uses the word emphasis, he is being precise.  It's not as if match play doesn't exist among actual, real golfers.   Rather, it's that the dopes who purport to speak for "the game" and have the loudest megaphones when purporting to speak for "the game" all think almost exclusively in terms of medal play and consider match play a quaint anachronism to be honored a couple times a year, like war veterans or spouses. 

All that highlights to me is how TOTALLY OUT OF TOUCH the game's self-appointed mouthpieces are with the ACTUAL game of golf - because the actual game of golf is not run by bureaucrats in Far Hills and it's not written about by failed sportswriters in Orlando.  It's not played on TV on famous courses.  Nor is it played behind ropes.  And nobody gets a medal....

It's played by John Doe against Jim Smith and other guys you've never heard of on a course nobody more than 20 miles away has ever heard of, and at the end of their match, they shake hands -- without a trophy wife flying out of the crowd to give the winner the Heimlich.  That is REAL golf.  And it ain't played at medal play except in the delusional minds of the handful of idiots who have run "the game" (their version, not mine). into the ground. 

My version (which is the vast majority's version) is doing just fine - and it's played at match play.

But, at the end of the round, you have to post your adjusted medal score.
 
So unless your version excludes the posting of your rounds, you play a medal game every time you tee it up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

Dr MacKenzie was a great proponent of matchplay as against medal play or the "card and pencil" game as I think he used to refer to it, yet he would have been horrified at that front bunker at Hollywood. MacKenzie believed that the weaker player should always have a way in even if it was at the expense of a shot. Consequently you don't find too many (or any ?) cross bunkers like that on his courses.
 
Niall,
 
The 4th at Hollywood is a short hole.
Unfortunately, the weaker player doesn't think he's a weaker player, and as such, plays from the wrong tees.
 
As to your claim about McKenzie, it would seem that you haven't played the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 10th and 11th holes at Pasatiempo, nor the 15th and 16th holes at CPC

Also, I'm a bit confused as to why you think that quirk. To me it's just an old fashioned cross bunker. I suppose quirk is different for each person but interested to know why you think quirk intrinsically is better for matchplay than medal ?
 
Count the number of cross bunkers and then tell me that's not quirk.



Niall

[Jason Topp]

While most US play is match play, most US players evaluate how well the played based on score.  I find it difficult to dispute that the pencil and scorecard mentality prevails in the United States.

I understand the concern about its impact on architecture in theory but am skeptical that the emphasis on strokeplay has had an effect in practice.  There are plenty of extremely penal golf courses built in the last 50 years. Pete Dye made his name building courses on which the average golfer will typically shoot a terrible score.

Mackenzie advocated for courses that allowed the higher handicap player a way to maneuver around the course even while decrying card and pencil golf.  Modern architects do the same thing.  That is good architecture, not something to bemoan.

The biggest theoretical downside of a strokeplay emphasis to architecture is the neutering of interesting holes that feature nasty hazards and blind shots.  There are plenty of nasty hazards built today and I suspect that Mackenzie and others would have tended to eliminate blind shots is bulldozers had been available back in the day.

I suspect the biggest downside of a strokeplay emphasis in practice is the impact on maintenence costs.  Bunkers that have deep sand or no sand get real irritating to a player concerned about his score.  Lies perceived as "unfair" are more likely to receive criticism.       
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Blake,
 
Are you positive that this is "Travis's" 4th hole at Hollywood ?


Hollywood 4th hole





The front of the green and the surrounds were draining directly into the top edge of the bunker.
 
Not the surrounds.
Also look at the left and right front of the bunker which deflects surface water 
 
Additionally, look at the wear of the turf around the right side of the bunker from walkers. 
 
What has that got to do with anything
 
Drainage and access to the green look to be the reason the bunker was altered. 
 
Can you substantiate that claim ?

I'd like to know where exactly you saw that bunker was altered because of fairness.
 
Do you think the bunker you presented is the same bunker that appears in the early aerial ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,
 
Given the equipment circa 1920's, do you feel that courses today are more challenging than the courses the ODG's built in the teens and 20's ?
 
Do you think that the more extreme or radical features have been preserved or removed or modified to be less challenging ?

[BCowan]

While most US play is match play, most US players evaluate how well the played based on score.  I find it difficult to dispute that the pencil and scorecard mentality prevails in the United States.
I understand the concern about its impact on architecture in theory but am skeptical that the emphasis on strokeplay has had an effect in practice.  There are plenty of extremely penal golf courses built in the last 50 years. Pete Dye made his name building courses on which the average golfer will typically shoot a terrible score.
Mackenzie advocated for courses that allowed the higher handicap player a way to maneuver around the course even while decrying card and pencil golf.  Modern architects do the same thing.  That is good architecture, not something to bemoan.
The biggest theoretical downside of a strokeplay emphasis to architecture is the neutering of interesting holes that feature nasty hazards and blind shots.  There are plenty of nasty hazards built today and I suspect that Mackenzie and others would have tended to eliminate blind shots is bulldozers had been available back in the day.
I suspect the biggest downside of a strokeplay emphasis in practice is the impact on maintenence costs.  Bunkers that have deep sand or no sand get real irritating to a player concerned about his score.  Lies perceived as "unfair" are more likely to receive criticism.     

Jason,

   The object in Golf is to get the ball in the hole with the fewest number of shots.  Dr Mack and Pete did this unusual thing in that they required the golfer to actually think about what they are doing before they execute.  Dr Mack did it in a much more tasteful manner imo.  Just played UofM yest in perfect weather and we played a 2 man best ball Nassau.  2 of the 4 have never played the course.  With 4 blind tee shots on the front nine and bunkers not maint. to CCFAD levels it was wonderful.  Everyone enjoyed the course, my one keeper friend bitched a little about the lack of sand .  The funny thing is all of us carded bogey on the 300 yard par 4 6th hole, with two of us laying up and the others pin high on their tee shots.  Holes like that seldom get built anymore, that takes talent.

The biggest impediment to fun quirky courses is all the building of irrigation ponds.  I find my self of late trying to picture playing golden age courses I love prior to irrigation systems being implemented in the 50's i believe.  I was born a century too late.  Give me Firm, true, and rugged. 

[Jason Topp]

The funny thing is all of us carded bogey on the 300 yard par 4 6th hole, with two of us laying up and the others pin high on their tee shots.  Holes like that seldom get built anymore, that takes talent.

I disagree,  I think that modern courses have such holes so often that they are almost becoming a cliche'.  Doak, Coore& Crenshaw and Weiskopf build those holes on every course they design.  It seems that most courses built in the last 10 years have a short to driveable par 4.

[BCowan]

Jason,

    That is true.  The neat thing about some 300 yard golden age holes is they were built for drive and pitch holes.  Without modern day equipment maybe only Jack could have driven that green. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't consider a short, or even a driveable par 4 as "quirky"
 
However, I might find the features within that hole "quirky"
 
Is # 1 at NGLA "quirky" ?

[Blake Conant]

I'm confident that's Travis' 4th hole at Hollywood.  I think you need to provide some overwhelming evidence that it isn't if you want to go down that road.


The entire left side of the bunker is raised to block surface water from coming down the hill and into the front left of the bunker.  Because that's raised, a significant amount of water coming off the green down the left surround HAS to go in the top left side of the bunker.


The wear is tangible evidence of an access issue.


I said drainage and access "look to be" the reason for the change.  My opinion as I'm thinking of rational justifications for solving problems the bunker presents.  You were much more definitive: "Quirk that was removed in the name of "fairness""

So again, if you've got *any proof* that the bunker was removed in the name of fairness I'll retract my opinion.

[Mark Chaplin]

Just checked my handicap, my last 4 scoring rounds were;

5th April 2015
1st November 2014
25th October 2014 (medal)
21st September 2014

Not much sign of medal play ruining my golf or the courses I play!

[Jason Thurman]

I love shitty bounces in match play. It's just in stroke play that I hate them.

[Mark Pearce]

Just checked my handicap, my last 4 scoring rounds were;

5th April 2015
1st November 2014
25th October 2014 (medal)
21st September 2014

Not much sign of medal play ruining my golf or the courses I play!

Need to get a couple of cards in, Mark, or you'll lose your (c) handicap!

[Michael Moore]

Everyone of them is supposed to post their score for handicap purposes, ergo, medal play.

They most certainly are not. As the game flatlines, it would behoove you to keep in mind and perhaps even celebrate the approximately twenty million golfers in this country who just want to get out there and have some fun without this extra layer of cost and bureaucracy.

[MClutterbuck]

MClutterbuck


The assumption I make from your post is that you assume hard/penal equates to matchplay golf. Why ? Could they not just be making the hole easier because the members don't like it so hard ?


If penal equates to matchplay then where does strategy come into it ? By that I mean the strategy employed in playing against your opponent ie. playing conservative if ahead etc.


Niall

No. But match play does forgive penal more, it is just one hole you loose, and it is fine to reward the other player with a hole if he took the risk and hit the green.


 

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark is it a rolling 12 months or Jan-Jan? I've the usual two winter events over the next 3 weeks giving me 3 cards for 2015. Or will I need a supplementary card or two PDQ?

[Kalen Braley]

  .

[Rob Marshall]

Everyone of them is supposed to post their score for handicap purposes, ergo, medal play.

They most certainly are not. As the game flatlines, it would behoove you to keep in mind and perhaps even celebrate the approximately twenty million golfers in this country who just want to get out there and have some fun without this extra layer of cost and bureaucracy.

They certainly are if they want to maintain a handicap. If they don't want a handicap then no problem but you are going to be very limited in playing in any type of organized event.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm confident that's Travis' 4th hole at Hollywood. 

Are you confident that the hole you posted isn't Isaac Mackie's 4th hole at Hollywood ?

I think you need to provide some overwhelming evidence that it isn't if you want to go down that road.

The entire left side of the bunker is raised to block surface water from coming down the hill and into the front left of the bunker.  Because that's raised, a significant amount of water coming off the green down the left surround HAS to go in the top left side of the bunker.

The wear is tangible evidence of an access issue.

I said drainage and access "look to be" the reason for the change. 

My opinion as I'm thinking of rational justifications for solving problems the bunker presents.  You were much more definitive: "Quirk that was removed in the name of "fairness""

So again, if you've got *any proof* that the bunker was removed in the name of fairness I'll retract my opinion.

Travis declared that he didn't favor hazards that penalized the poorer golfer.

In addition, the fronting bunker was offset from the green such that runoff from the green didn't flow into the bunker.

[Sean_A]

The object in Golf is to get the ball in the hole with the fewest number of shots.
[/size][/color]
[/size]The object of matchplay is to win each hole for an ultimate match victory.  That is done by holing out in fewer shots than your opponent.  [/color]

[/size]The object in medal play is to win the event.  That is done by holing out in fewer shots than your opponents.  [/color]

[/size]There is no mythical "fewer shots"...all scoring relates to how well your opponent(s) does.  [/color]

[/size]I don't know if architecture has changed because of medal play.  Could be, especially if the concept of "fairness" is tied into medal play.  I think the question becomes, do architects design courses based on medal and match?  Again, I don't know the answer to that question.[/color]

[/size]Ciao[/color]

[Thomas Dai]

We should also consider the aspect of medal play for who?
For most amateurs it's normally 1-round, very occasionally maybe a 2-round comp. For the better amateur it may be 2-3-4 round medal comps. For the players we see on TV it's usually 3-4 rounds. Bit of a difference.
atb

[Pat Burke]

I've had a lot of success with some students by getting them to look at every round as match play against their target score (even bogeys for instance).  Some of them have a lot more fun not worrying about a disaster hole this way.
The worry about those disasters has probably created a lot of softening (make it more fair )
of some cool features.  Hollywood is a great example, I haven't seen it lately, but the old photos look amazing to me

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