Ann Arbor battle Royale of the titans (Farms, BHCC, & UM)

[Dan Ackerberg]

#4 UM>Radrick


Radrick #4 doesn’t do much for me.


UM #4 is probably in my top third of holes on the course.  I’m not sure about possible changes.  I’m generally all for getting rid of trees, and certainly those on the left side of the whole should be removed.  But the tall trees on the right hand side about 230-250 yards out play an important role, really demanding a faded tee shot (drawn tee shots almost always end up in the left rough, at least for me).  I don’t think this is a bad thing, since 1) without those right hand side trees, the tee shot would just be about bombing it out far enough to get to the fairway downslope, and 2) there aren’t many other holes on the course that favor a fade.   Excellent large green.  Looking at old aerials the back left area seems new (it’s a great part of the green though – wish the pin was back there more), while the original green extended 5-10 yards to the right.  I would have liked to see what that original right area looked like.

[Dustin Ferrell]

HOLE 3:
 
  ~BH:  Super strong par4 that has improved with revised bunkering.  Tee ball is critical as the closer you take on the dogleg, the more you cut off the 2nd shot.  Green is appropriate for a shot of 200ish with generous opening into the green with a predominant back left to front right slope which favors a ball coming in from the right side of the fairway (closer to running through dogleg the better the angle of approach.  I think aesthetically the hole will be improved with the scrubby pines taken out and maybe even a few trees taken out of the dogleg.
 
~RF:   Actually think this is a nice par 4 with a nice tee shot coming off the hill.  Would maybe be improved with some tree removal, and I don't think a tee ball down the left really makes for much of an improvement of your second shot so generally middle to right side of fairway is totally fine.  Green is decent, but overall not terribly interesting, and is easier to chip up to from short, but the lone bunker makes me want to at least play middle to back edge approach.
 
~ UM:  Well...Ben and I can't disagree more on this one.  I think there is very little strategy involved in this hole as I don't see it as a reasonable 2-shotter opportunity so whether I snap hook left, block right into the traps or bomb one down the middle, I'm mostly thinking about hitting whatever gets me to the bottom of the hill for a little wedge or short iron.  I think the green lacks pin placements and the group of trees left short of the green are an eye sore and makes the 2nd shot really boring as I don't really see it as a reasonable risk to go for the green from a downhill lie challenging the trees (although I'm sure safety for the 4th tee is a consideration).
 
 
HOLE 4: 
 
~BH:  Well, I'm starting to feel like a Homer, but I think no.4 at Barton is one of the strongest holes on the course although fairly easy generally.  The tee ball is fairly generous as you can hit hybrid to Driver and end up with a shortish iron either way you go.  However, angle into the green is critical if the pin is left or right as the large green is pretty heavily bunkered left, long, and right.  Green has tons of subtle breaks and plays dramatically different for me all the back to my tee shot depending on pin placement.
 
~UM:  Really like this hole for a couple reasons and would be my 1st pick against most holes at BH or RH if it wasn't the 4th.  Driving to a blind landing area where ideally you challenge the right side to get the most out of the fairway tilting towards the left rough.  Green is heavily tilted back to front and certainly a hole you want to stay below if you want a good chance at birdie or not 3 jacking from even close range if you're above the hole. 
 
~RF:  I don't recall ever playing it from 197yds as the scorecard calls from the back tee, so from my recollection it was generally a mid iron up to a raised green.  Good 1 shotter for sure, below the hole is a good place to be.  Nothing to complain about, just see it as the lesser of the Ann Arbor 4th holes.
 
 
 
 

[Sean_A]

I certainly echo Dustin's thoughts on the trees protecting the green for the go for it approach on #3.  All that is really achieved is big hitters can have a go and guys who hit it 240 off the tee are blocked out when it could be possible to reach with two good blows. I would disagree with Dustin concerning the green...it is very, very good...requiring very precise approaching and putting.  Rs 4th is a fairly standard par 3...one of 10,000.  At Least UM's 3rd is a bit daring.

I realize I should stop posting on this thread because I don't believe Radrick is in the same class as the Blue...the interest levels between the two are miles apart.  The Blue is a quietly excellent course designed by two guys who were extremely seasoned by the time of the Blue's opening.  Radrick is an early Dye effort which is evidnet in its fairly bland nature, even if good...in a generic sense that many modern courses are. 

Ciao

[BCowan]

S,

   The front 9 at Radrick can go toe to toe with many.  Farms #4 is a 1 in 10,000, that is a laugh.  I'm not saying the hole is great, but it is solid.  Farms is by far the best Dye course I have played.  Bland nature, lol.  You are on a roll.  UofM is better then the Farms, the Farms was founded by an Arb lover which sets it back.  The trees by 4 tee are due to UofM being a University course and to protect themselves from Lawsuits.  If you hit it 240 off the tee, you don't have a chance in hell of hitting it in two.  The farms is handcuffed with trees and a shitty hole on the back 9 (#16).  For the Record i have Radrick at 5.5-6 and UofM at an 8.

[BCowan]

5th Hole (This one is very tough, each one is solid)

1-Farms, After a poor start this half par 5 comes in just in the nic of time.  With tree removal to the right in the rough they have really opened the hole up nicely.  It is a fun tee shot hitting off an elevated tee with a soft fade being the ideal shape.  The long hitter has an advantage to get home in two with a 3 wood to long iron.  The green surrounds are classic pete dye ish with railroad ties in the back half left of the green (I believe added later by Pete).  The green is very long front to back 50 paces, with a ridge running across the green halfway through.  There are many times one walks away with bogey shaking their head, how did that happen.  The 3rd shot is challenging when the pin is front or back.  A small little creek is off to the right by the green for the golfer who flails it off to the right trying to get home in two.  Going for the green in two with a back pin placement is tough.  Coming up short gives one the hardest shot in golf (the long bunker shot). 

2-Barton, Solid one shooter.  The bunker bleed into the green edges so well.  Some very cool pin placements offered on this green.  A back pin placement is very fun, enticing you to get greedy.  The green is surrounded pretty much by bunkers. 

3-UofM, Solid one shooter.  The green has just been reclaimed and tree removal done about 3 years ago really makes the camouflaged bunker pop out on 6.  The green reclaiming isn't as good as could be in the front left portion.  From the back tees this is probably the toughest hole to par on the course. 

[Dan Ackerberg]

Hole #5  Radrick > UM 

Radrick - I'd rank it somewhere around the 7th-9th best hole on the course, based primarily on the impressively long, raised, green.  This, along with some nice contouring, making a really interesting 2nd or 3rd shot.  Creek is somewhat in play for going for green in two, but it needs to be significantly short/right.  I think the tee shot could be made better by more tree removal both left and right.

UofM - For me #5 is the least interesting of the Par 3s on the course, but it's still a solid hole.  The green is on the small side and going to be very hard to hit and hold from the 225 yd tips (though I can't say I've played it from there).   So I agree with Ben that from there its one of the tougher pars on the course, though maybe not as hard as the slightly longer 12th (which has a bigger (and I think more challenging green)).



I suspect if I knew BH #5 better I would rank it the highest of the three.

[BCowan]

Alright lets get Dustin's and Aaron/Matty B's(way behind) picks....   

[Aaron McMaster]

I'd give the edge to Barton on hole 3 and I believe the best hole on the front 9, sans the nonsensical ditch that was put into the green during the reno.  Excellent tee shot value for Barton here and depending how well you can work the ball it can make for a mid iron approaches or if you go high right your looking at very long difficult approach shots.  I like 3 at Radrick alot too, also a good tee shot but too many trees down the left that need to be thinned out.  Tough green approach at RF on 3 and anything long is dead and I like the shape of the green but doze that tree to the right of the green.  UM number 3 is good but imo not the nirana that many like it to be.  The pines on the left about 175 out should go, it's not a challenging driving hole and the real difficulty and genius of this hole is the green complex.  If those pines were gone I'd like this hole.


1. Barton
2. RF
3. UM

[BCowan]

UM number 3 is good but imo not the nirana that many like it to be.  The pines on the left about 175 out should go, it's not a challenging driving hole and the real difficulty and genius of this hole is the green complex.  If those pines were gone I'd love this hole.

    It is that good, and your first and last sentences contradict one another  .  The pines aren't going to go anytime soon, It's a University course and they get some horrible golfers, they don't need a liability with 4 tee so close, you should cut them slack.  The tee shot is very challenging for most, I know you forgot that when we played it, we had a 25 mph wind at our back making even a pushed tee shot able to carry the fairway bunker.  Your last sentence is great, some green reclaiming would help too. 

[Aaron McMaster]

UM number 3 is good but imo not the nirana that many like it to be.  The pines on the left about 175 out should go, it's not a challenging driving hole and the real difficulty and genius of this hole is the green complex.  If those pines were gone I'd love this hole.

    It is that good, and your first and last sentences contradict one another  .  The pines aren't going to go anytime soon, It's a University course and they get some horrible golfers, they don't need a liability with 4 tee so close, you should cut them slack.  The tee shot is very challenging for most, I know you forgot that when we played it, we had a 25 mph wind at our back making even a pushed tee shot able to carry the fairway bunker.  Your last sentence is great, some green reclaiming would help too.


Your right, I was trying to work and write...it should say I'd like the hole without the pines.  Now, I we debating what the holes can be or what they are??  As is, I stick by my rating.  There are horrible golfers at all courses, um isn't any exception to this rule.  Also, there was nowhere near a 25 mph wind at my back when we played there, jesus that's Ireland crap.  It was downwind but nothing significant since right back into the wind two of us in the group had a go at 11 in two, which if there was a 25 mph fan that would be a fantasy.  I know you love this place but stop being such a homer.

[BCowan]

UM number 3 is good but imo not the nirana that many like it to be.  The pines on the left about 175 out should go, it's not a challenging driving hole and the real difficulty and genius of this hole is the green complex.  If those pines were gone I'd love this hole.

    It is that good, and your first and last sentences contradict one another  .  The pines aren't going to go anytime soon, It's a University course and they get some horrible golfers, they don't need a liability with 4 tee so close, you should cut them slack.  The tee shot is very challenging for most, I know you forgot that when we played it, we had a 25 mph wind at our back making even a pushed tee shot able to carry the fairway bunker.  Your last sentence is great, some green reclaiming would help too.


Your right, I was trying to work and write...it should say I'd like the hole without the pines.  Now, I we debating what the holes can be or what they are??  As is, I stick by my rating.  There are horrible golfers at all courses, um isn't any exception to this rule.  Also, there was nowhere near a 25 mph wind at my back when we played there, jesus that's Ireland crap.  It was downwind but nothing significant since right back into the wind two of us in the group had a go at 11 in two, which if there was a 25 mph fan that would be a fantasy.  I know you love this place but stop being such a homer.

U said previously ud love the hole, now it's only like ?  There are substantially more horrible golfers there, but lets not get off track.  You can get gusts of 25mph, especially since it was Indian summer and the wind was out of the south, opposite wind.  Heck monday it was 45 and sunny,  next day 6 inches of snow.    Hence conditions changed when u two chaps w hot equipment made it to 11.  I don't love the place I just tell it like it is....  Go Bucks

Aaron, let's hear hole 4 picks?  It looks like saltzman is too cool to continue playing.  Matty b, need ur picks

[Aaron McMaster]

UM number 3 is good but imo not the nirana that many like it to be.  The pines on the left about 175 out should go, it's not a challenging driving hole and the real difficulty and genius of this hole is the green complex.  If those pines were gone I'd love this hole.

    It is that good, and your first and last sentences contradict one another  .  The pines aren't going to go anytime soon, It's a University course and they get some horrible golfers, they don't need a liability with 4 tee so close, you should cut them slack.  The tee shot is very challenging for most, I know you forgot that when we played it, we had a 25 mph wind at our back making even a pushed tee shot able to carry the fairway bunker.  Your last sentence is great, some green reclaiming would help too.


Your right, I was trying to work and write...it should say I'd like the hole without the pines.  Now, I we debating what the holes can be or what they are??  As is, I stick by my rating.  There are horrible golfers at all courses, um isn't any exception to this rule.  Also, there was nowhere near a 25 mph wind at my back when we played there, jesus that's Ireland crap.  It was downwind but nothing significant since right back into the wind two of us in the group had a go at 11 in two, which if there was a 25 mph fan that would be a fantasy.  I know you love this place but stop being such a homer.

U said previously ud love the hole, now it's only like ?  There are substantially more horrible golfers there, but lets not get off track.  You can get gusts of 25mph, especially since it was Indian summer and the wind was out of the south, opposite wind.  Heck monday it was 45 and sunny,  next day 6 inches of snow.    Hence conditions changed when u two chaps w hot equipment made it to 11.  I don't love the place I just tell it like it is....  Go Bucks

Aaron, let's hear hole 4 picks?  It looks like saltzman is too cool to continue playing.  Matty b, need ur picks

My last comment here then on to 4.....you really think I just happened to pull a 25 mph gust while hitting a tee shot?? I need a crazy head emoji to insert here.....that place was wet as heck too that day and still it's not a difficult driving hole.

[BCowan]

UM number 3 is good but imo not the nirana that many like it to be.  The pines on the left about 175 out should go, it's not a challenging driving hole and the real difficulty and genius of this hole is the green complex.  If those pines were gone I'd love this hole.

    It is that good, and your first and last sentences contradict one another  .  The pines aren't going to go anytime soon, It's a University course and they get some horrible golfers, they don't need a liability with 4 tee so close, you should cut them slack.  The tee shot is very challenging for most, I know you forgot that when we played it, we had a 25 mph wind at our back making even a pushed tee shot able to carry the fairway bunker.  Your last sentence is great, some green reclaiming would help too.


Your right, I was trying to work and write...it should say I'd like the hole without the pines.  Now, I we debating what the holes can be or what they are??  As is, I stick by my rating.  There are horrible golfers at all courses, um isn't any exception to this rule.  Also, there was nowhere near a 25 mph wind at my back when we played there, jesus that's Ireland crap.  It was downwind but nothing significant since right back into the wind two of us in the group had a go at 11 in two, which if there was a 25 mph fan that would be a fantasy.  I know you love this place but stop being such a homer.

U said previously ud love the hole, now it's only like ?  There are substantially more horrible golfers there, but lets not get off track.  You can get gusts of 25mph, especially since it was Indian summer and the wind was out of the south, opposite wind.  Heck monday it was 45 and sunny,  next day 6 inches of snow.    Hence conditions changed when u two chaps w hot equipment made it to 11.  I don't love the place I just tell it like it is....  Go Bucks

Aaron, let's hear hole 4 picks?  It looks like saltzman is too cool to continue playing.  Matty b, need ur picks

My last comment here then on to 4.....you really think I just happened to pull a 25 mph gust while hitting a tee shot?? I need a crazy head emoji to insert here.....that place was wet as heck too that day and still it's not a difficult driving hole.

Yes, I think 18-25mph I've never seen anyone hit 5 iron into that hole.  First off it was little soft for that time a year considering we had no rain prior, Def not wet.  It's roller coaster downhill once drive is carried 230 off tee.   So don't think u carried it there.  I need to insert moron icon now.  It's not easy for someone who only carries it 240 and doesn't hit it solid or play hot equipment.  You fail to see it outside how you interact with the hole.  Okay onto 4.

[Matt Bielawa]

#3:


UM:  Really close to a great hole, but for me, not quite there.  For a guy with my length (which is average, at best) the hole is really limiting in options for the second shot.  For me, it's a boring lay-up shot, because I don't recall ever thinking the risk-reward of hitting a shot over the pines on the left made any sense.  The green is fantastic.  Agree with both Aaron and Ben...the trees on the left have to go, and they never will due to the position of the 4th tee.  Too bad, because the hole is really close to great.


Radrick:  Not a bad hole, but I guess it doesn't excite me as much as some of the other holes on the front at Radrick.  A pretty good drive, and a pretty good green...I wish they used back left pins more frequently.


Barton:  A bit of an awkward hole for me.  I haven't figured out how to play it yet, having only played Barton twice.  A very demanding tee shot and good, but somewhat weird green. 


UM > Barton > Radrick

[Matt Bielawa]

#4:


UM:  Another really good hole here.  Blind Drive and a shot into a large and difficult green.  I'm fairly sure I've had more 3-putts on this one than any other.  Would be nice to have seen this hole before it was backed up by the indoor tennis building and cell towers.


Radrick:  A nice par 3.  Good green.  Not terribly difficult.  Probably the most straight-forward par 3 at Radrick.  No frills, just a solid hole.  I'm not a fan of the back tee though...it's a weird angle from there and just doesn't really work for me.


Barton:  One of my favorite holes at Barton.  Love the Ross drive-and-pitch holes and this one is one of the better ones.  Just a fun hole and a really good green. 


Barton > UM > Radrick

[Matt Bielawa]

#5:


A really tough one for me here...three very good holes.


UM:  Once they thinned out the trees beyond the green and opened up the view to the 6th green, with the camouflage of the 6th's greenside bunker, this became a really cool hole.  Bunkers can be tough.


Radrick:  Just a fun hole.  Very reachable par 5 with substantial risk/reward to it, both on the drive and the approach.  Tough to get up and down from many spots around the green.  It seems to play at least a half-shot harder (to me) when the pin is in the back, which is pretty rare.


Barton:  An awesome par 3 with a really cool green complex.


Barton > Radrick > UM

[JWL]

Unless it was changed back to the original, the original first hole at UM was a par 4 up the hill....the present 10th hole.    It was certainly that way in the 70's and prior to the Art Hills renovation.    So if the par 4 was the original first hole, shouldn't that hole be the hole being considered in the battle?