[cary lichtenstein]

Curious as to how many of 18 greens should allow for run up shots?


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[Alex Miller]

The question in your title and the question in your post are different are they not?


My answers are <18 and ≤18, respectively.


But really I don't know that there should or needs to be a requirement to allow a golfer to run his ball onto the green, but I do know constantly being asked to carry the ball onto the putting surface, especially for higher handicappers, is tiresome.

[archie_struthers]

 


Eighteen would be fine , but so would 12, 13. Or 15.    For me , the par three holes allow for forced carries more easily just cause you can tee it up , it's that simple.

[Keith OHalloran]

14

[Jay Mickle]

14

+0/-0

[Josh Stevens]

Is this not more a question of length of approach shot and having alternate routes

I guess the average 15 handicapper, is reasonably able to carry the ball say 140-150m (sorry I cant do yards). Anything more than that and you are starting to drop people off as they simply cant carry a hazard and be able to stop the ball on a green.  So assume the average drive is 200m, and so any par 3 longer than 140m, and any par 4 longer than 340m should have some ground approach option, even if it means tacking around a hazard.

[Paul Gray]

Well surely there's no prescription for it. Topography, turf, prevailing winds and firmness (not necessarily fastness though) will all influence the outcome.

[cary lichtenstein]

Well surely there's no prescription for it. Topography, turf, prevailing winds and firmness (not necessarily fastness though) will all influence the outcome.

Yes, but surely architects today frown on holes that can be reached only by air, so what is the average number? 12/14/16

[Paul Gray]

Well surely there's no prescription for it. Topography, turf, prevailing winds and firmness (not necessarily fastness though) will all influence the outcome.

Yes, but surely architects today frown on holes that can be reached only by air, so what is the average number? 12/14/16

Sorry to pick the notion apart but what actually constitutes open?

If there's a wide old cops bunker thirty yards short of the green which spans the entire width of the green, is that still open? What about if that same bunker were ten yards from the front of the green? What if it were forty yards or fifty yards or one hundred yards short of the green?

Or, what if there was a tiny pot bunker immediately in front of the green but 80% of the putting surface was still open? What if that bunker was bigger? What if that bunker was bigger but only covered the left or right portion of the green? What if the bunker covered most of the entrance but the architect had left a thin portion which you could run the ball through?

And remember again that what can or can't be approached through the air will depend not only on topography and turf but equally on the time of year. As a links golfer, there are green side bunkers which I can safely fly in the winter and still hold the green which, in the summer, would see my ball charging off the back of the putting surface.

Love it or loath it (I happen to love it), the 17th at Sawgrass is a classic modern hole. But attempt to repeat that trick with a rock hard links green to aim at, whereby your only chance of not being in the water would be to play for the bunker, and you'd have a truly terrible golf hole.

No one prescription.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Cary,


Its a good question, and one any gca should answer generally before starting a design, and then, perhaps change the answer in relation to topography.  If you base your philosophy on how it plays for golfers over some other notion (which you should!) then its a fair question.


My answer is a minimum of 14, probably 16, (one per side) and maybe 15, with one each on a par 3, 4, and 5.


Lately, I have been trending closer to 18.  After restoring La Costa to something close to the original Wilson design, and seeing too many golfers get in those green side bunkers, the members asked us to screw Wilson and make the second course easier.  In playing with them and the media, on nearly every hole I saw someone hit a front bunker (or pinching lateral front bunker) which was no fun.  On almost every hole, if we could have moved the side bunkers out and back just a yard, fewer golfers hit them.


For the average golfer, a "good shot" isn't being in the right portion of the green, etc. It's one that got airborne, flew about in the direction of the green with enough distance to get there.....at least almost.  For them, having a good shot land in a frontal bunker or pond just doesn't seem fair.  And, "them" make up 90+% of golfers.

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