Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead

[Josh Tarble]

I didn't want to post this on the other thread in case people valued the surprise of rankings and the Gourmet Choice.  But I had several ratings/choices that were surprises to me

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Spoilers ahead
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[Josh Tarble]

I thought this version was excellent - mainly because I had played several of the courses so of course I could relate to it more.  I think Tom and Co. did an excellent job of highlighting some hidden gems and sleepers that I now have to put on my list (ever growing).

I was very pleasantly surprised to find some non-traditional courses in the Gourmet Choice.

Audubon Park has already been mentioned, but the write-up made me want to visit New Orleans AND bring my clubs.  Sounds like a very cool place.

Sand Hollow was a big surprise to me.  Pictures certainly look spectacular, but it always seemed like people described it as a 4 or 5 hole course with the remaining holes being a little bland.  Apparently not at all.

Streamsong Blue is very deserving of inclusion.  It's exceptional in my opinion, I just wasn't sure how Tom would approach his courses.  Ran's write-up is excellent and makes me very excited for my upcoming trip!

Tobacco Road.  Certainly deserving and Darius' commentary was very poignant and fitting, both for the course and Stranz.

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The only really borderline shocking rating I saw was for Cuscowilla.  I had heard good things but no idea it was in the upper echelon of C&C courses.  An 8 from Tom is certainly high praise and am looking forward to heading out there.

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I was also a little disappointed in the fact there were only a couple 0s.  I guess I wanted a bit more of a bloodbath hahaha! But the guide is supposed to help people to figure out where they should go, not where they should avoid.  But in my opinion there are a lot of courses in the SW and SE worthy of 0s. 


Anyway, fantastic job by all involved and I looked forward to reading it far more in depth this coming winter.



 

[Tom_Doak]

Josh:


Ran suggested we do a thread inviting readers to highlight courses where they had a two-point difference in grading compared to ours.  I'd suggest everyone stick to that guideline ... it's all a matter of opinion, of course, but a one-point difference is very small.  Even my co-authors disagree with my ratings 40-50% of the time!


I hope Ran chooses to participate here, too.


Side bet:  more people will think my grades are too low rather than too high; more people will think the opposite of Ran's.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Josh:


Ran suggested we do a thread inviting readers to highlight courses where they had a two-point difference in grading compared to ours.  I'd suggest everyone stick to that guideline ... it's all a matter of opinion, of course, but a one-point difference is very small.  Even my co-authors disagree with my ratings 40-50% of the time!


I hope Ran chooses to participate here, too.


Side bet:  more people will think my grades are too low rather than too high; more people will think the opposite of Ran's.

Tom, the toughest grader was Darius.  If you look only at courses you both played the differences are striking.  Of the 125 or so courses with the highest grades he only gave higher grades to 4 four while he gave lower grades to 32. 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, the toughest grader was Darius.  If you look only at courses you both played the differences are striking.  Of the 125 or so courses with the highest grades he only gave higher grades to 4 four while he gave lower grades to 32.

Tommy:


Doak ratings are impervious to mathematics.


However, I did know that Darius was the toughest grader on the curve.  I think he only awarded seven or eight 10's worldwide, and gave 7's to a couple of courses that he has on his current list of the Top 100 Courses in the World (!).  Hopefully readers will account for that when they see a course that only he has reviewed.  But again, the book is about the reviews, more than the numbers.

[Dan Kelly]

the book is about the reviews, more than the numbers.

Good luck with that!

[Tom_Doak]

the book is about the reviews, more than the numbers.

Good luck with that!

Yeah, I know.  But the best review I've heard of the book to date is my wife's:  that it would be a really great book without all the numbers.  If only I'd known her in 1988!

[Peter Pallotta]

the book is about the reviews, more than the numbers.

Good luck with that!

Yeah, I know.  But the best review I've heard of the book to date is my wife's:  that it would be a really great book without all the numbers.  If only I'd known her in 1988!

No, all things considered, it's probably better that you met her when you did, and not in 1988!
 
Timing is (almost) everything, isn't it?

[Josh Tarble]

Tom,
Thanks for the response, I wasn't meaning to say I think Cuscowilla should be any number, just that I was surprised to see it as an 8.

Were there any courses Darius saw after the book was done that you discussed?  I know he was excited to see Old Town.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I have a few questions:

1) How do two panelists make it all the way down to Wolf Point but not bother skipping down to Rockport? I don't think it has changed for the better in the 29 years(!) since it apparently was last seen, but still. And mysteriously it suffered a 1 point drop from the earlier TCG despite no visits. That's magazine ratings quality effort -- or is it a tyop?

2) Purely on the golf architecture, is Audubon a 6?

3) It's good to see the GC cut down to 18 in an attempt to preserve quality, but are there 90 GC-worthy courses in the world? I read the 18 in this part of the world and was considerably less inspired than in vol 1. Maybe rename this section, "Gourmand's Choice." 

[Carl Rogers]

Tobacco Road: If the 16th hole at TR was at ... let's say Lahinch or Troon, would that hole be tolerated or accepted more than at an American Modern course?

[Tom_Doak]

1) How do two panelists make it all the way down to Wolf Point but not bother skipping down to Rockport? I don't think it has changed for the better in the 29 years(!) since it apparently was last seen, but still. And mysteriously it suffered a 1 point drop from the earlier TCG despite no visits. That's magazine ratings quality effort -- or is it a tyop?

2) Purely on the golf architecture, is Audubon a 6?

3) It's good to see the GC cut down to 18 in an attempt to preserve quality, but are there 90 GC-worthy courses in the world? I read the 18 in this part of the world and was considerably less inspired than in vol 1. Maybe rename this section, "Gourmand's Choice." 

Answers:


1)  We are all traveling on our own dime and we all have day jobs, so our ability to go back and see every course again to keep reviews fresh is limited by reality.  I have not changed too many grades in the book without seeing a course again, but I did ask around a bit about Rockport's condition and the reports were not encouraging.  The drop in grade is also reflective of the fact that Bill Coore has built many better courses since then, making Rockport somewhat less newsworthy than it was in 1988 or 1996.


2)  I thought Audubon Park was a charming course and worthy of highlighting because the decision to go to executive length is so rarely made by clients.  There are many other 6's in other parts of the country I would prefer to play, but I thought the design was worthy of the grade.


3)  There are certainly more than 90 courses in the world that deserve a longer write-up.  However they are not equally distributed geographically, and our attempt to make room for as many different architects and styles as possible [and limit charges of favoritism, though we certainly all have favorites] will lead to some unconventional choices.  But I am a big fan of the unconventional, so I don't feel that I am skimping on quality here.

[Tom_Doak]

Tobacco Road: If the 16th hole at TR was at ... let's say Lahinch or Troon, would that hole be tolerated or accepted more than at an American Modern course?

No.  There are many double standards in what is acceptable for modern design, as opposed to older courses, but the 16th at Tobacco Road is a poor hole and there is nothing at Lahinch or Troon remotely like it.  Maybe at lesser links ... that's why they're lesser.

[Carl Rogers]

Audubon Park is right across St. Charles Avenue from my school, Tulane.  Got to play there a few times back in the early to mid 70's ... kind of forgettable back then .... very surprised to see its higher profile now in the CG.  I assume a lot has been done to it since.
A while back, I asked Tom, on a thread if out of the way modest unknown accessible courses would be in the CD.  He said he would hope so, and it turned out to be true.
Darius' grading: my day with him, Tommy and another gentleman whose name I cannot re-call at Ballyhack was a day in my modest golfing life I will always remember.  One of the many comments he made was that he grew up in the game with Royal Melbourne as his standard.  I have a feeling that if RM is your standard, then grading harder comes naturally.

[Sean_A]

Tobacco Road: If the 16th hole at TR was at ... let's say Lahinch or Troon, would that hole be tolerated or accepted more than at an American Modern course?

I don't think the 16th is particularly odd...especially at TR  Why do you pin point the hole as one to be tolerated?


Ciao

[Sam Morrow]

So a course, in this case Rockport, can lose a point because Coore has done a ton of good courses since doing Rockport?

It seems silly that a course can lose points for that.

[Tom_Doak]

So a course, in this case Rockport, can lose a point because Coore has done a ton of good courses since doing Rockport?

It seems silly that a course can lose points for that.

It happens all the time in rankings.  You're always trying to decide if a course is a 5 or a 6 ... context helps push you in one direction or the other.  When there is just one example of someone's work, it's easy to be generous with a grade, because it really is something different.  Not so much anymore.  The context tells me that I overrated it a bit to begin with.


The same would be true for my own early work, by the way.  I'd have to downgrade High Pointe now by comparison to places like St. Andrews Beach or Tumble Creek, but it was very original in its day.

[Sam Morrow]

If they were original at the time they don't deserve to be downgraded if there hasn't been a significant change to the course.

[Carl Rogers]

Tobacco Road: If the 16th hole at TR was at ... let's say Lahinch or Troon, would that hole be tolerated or accepted more than at an American Modern course?

I don't think the 16th is particularly odd...especially at TR  Why do you pin point the hole as one to be tolerated?
Ciao

Sean, because it has been widely criticized.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Tom, the toughest grader was Darius.  If you look only at courses you both played the differences are striking.  Of the 125 or so courses with the highest grades he only gave higher grades to 4 four while he gave lower grades to 32.

Tommy:


Doak ratings are impervious to mathematics.


However, I did know that Darius was the toughest grader on the curve.  I think he only awarded seven or eight 10's worldwide, and gave 7's to a couple of courses that he has on his current list of the Top 100 Courses in the World (!).  Hopefully readers will account for that when they see a course that only he has reviewed.  But again, the book is about the reviews, more than the numbers.

I spoke to Darius about the rankings of a few 'local' courses while he was on his book tour. [I also had him sign my copy of volume 1! So, only 2 to go!] What was interesting to me was he asked for my copy, reviewed the definitions, and then answered.


I hope he'll chime in on this thread as well.

[Tom_Doak]

If they were original at the time they don't deserve to be downgraded if there hasn't been a significant change to the course.

The point is that the subsequent work has demonstrated that I had overrated those older courses to begin with.  And, though I am not your wife, I also reserve the privilege to change my mind at any time.

[Matt MacIver]

Tom - you got me. I've briefly reviewed the back of the book with the aggregate ratings and, to my untrained eye, I find much to quibble with but only by one notch.


The two I would most quibble with is Old Town at 7, and Musgrove Mill at 6, which only Ran saw.  These are both 11s!!!


Looking forward to digging into Vol. 2 as the weather turns colder.

[Ryan Taylor]

Matt, I agree with you. I was expecting Old Town to receive one or two 9's. I'm happy it was included in the Gourmet Choice.

[Chris DeToro]

None of the ratings were all that surprising to me.  One thing that did catch my eye, however, and I haven't done the mathematical comparison, but it seems as though this last 20 years of new course development has led to some really amazing places with Streamsong Red, Blue, Rustic Canyon, Stone Eagle, Cuscowilla, Dormie Club and many others garnering some high scores (7+)

[Don Mahaffey]

I have a few questions:

1) How do two panelists make it all the way down to Wolf Point...

There has been a third, but he is the "toughie" and he played it in the middle of summer when the grass is growing and not as fast...so I'm guessing if he added a score our average would drop.