Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road

[Tom_Doak]

I don't live in the world of having to dial back your driver to keep it under 300- so for someone who hits it 250 ish on a good driving day- on what holes are these perplexing distance problems from the tee?
If that's a perception I think it may be riding in the same cart as the too many crazy forced carries meme. Sure you may have to pick the right line to hit a bigger driver on every hole- 5 and 16 are the obvious exceptions, long hitters can always try the short route on 5- but to imply it's somehow tricked up (my phrase) because of this is wrong I think.

I seem to have to be apologizing a lot considering I put the course in the Gourmet's Choice section of my book.  But I only did so because I'm open to enjoying courses that are also flawed.

[MCirba]

Jeff,

I'd rather play the Quarry Course at Giant's Ridge 9 times to every go-round at TR.   It's a shame more folks are not able to get up there.

[George Pazin]

I don't live in the world of having to dial back your driver to keep it under 300- so for someone who hits it 250 ish on a good driving day- on what holes are these perplexing distance problems from the tee?
If that's a perception I think it may be riding in the same cart as the too many crazy forced carries meme. Sure you may have to pick the right line to hit a bigger driver on every hole- 5 and 16 are the obvious exceptions, long hitters can always try the short route on 5- but to imply it's somehow tricked up (my phrase) because of this is wrong I think.

Can't speak for TD, but I was referring specifically to the mismatch between the recommended tees and the distance I hit the ball. #s 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, & 9 (and that's just from the front 9) all provided tee shots I had to club down, sometimes way down, partly through running out of room and partly through lack of course knowledge (which you would obviously overcome quickly playing it repeatedly).


I wouldn't call this tricked up, just odd and limiting.


-----


I thought more about TR last night. It strikes me as having a lot of interesting shots, but that these shots would eventually become somewhat repetitive. I prefer a course where I can be a little more free-flowing off the tee, probably because my tee shots lead me to unique places each time! I think I would end up developing more of a planned, hop scotch approach to playing a course like TR. Again, I feel the same way about Pete Dye courses, and I seem to be the only person on the site that feels that way, which I'm ok with...

[Kalen Braley]

Since I've never played it....It seems to me that based on:
 
1)  The reviews I've read of the place, which are quite frankly all over the place aka very polarizing.
2)  The aerials I've looked at which reveal quite a few forced carries as well as many pinch points in seemingly awkward places
3)  The massive amount of quirk the course has, which I don't think anyone would deny.
 
.....that this course more than ever would benefit from free flowing tees, with no markers like Ballyneal.  It seems like its a perfect course where you should say "to hell with the score, to hell with playing from one set of tees, lets just tee it up wherever, have some fun, and see what kind of crazy shots we can find".

[Tom_Doak]

.....that this course more than ever would benefit from free flowing tees, with no markers like Ballyneal.  It seems like its a perfect course where you should say "to hell with the score, to hell with playing from one set of tees, lets just tee it up wherever, have some fun, and see what kind of crazy shots we can find".

Kalen:


Indeed, that was my story about the two juniors I played with.  From certain tees it was not playable for them, and from others it was a lot of fun, but it wasn't the same color marker on every hole.


The only problem with jumping around is that it's not easy to sort out which tee you ought to play.

[Chris DeNigris]

I don't live in the world of having to dial back your driver to keep it under 300- so for someone who hits it 250 ish on a good driving day- on what holes are these perplexing distance problems from the tee?
If that's a perception I think it may be riding in the same cart as the too many crazy forced carries meme. Sure you may have to pick the right line to hit a bigger driver on every hole- 5 and 16 are the obvious exceptions, long hitters can always try the short route on 5- but to imply it's somehow tricked up (my phrase) because of this is wrong I think.

Can't speak for TD, but I was referring specifically to the mismatch between the recommended tees and the distance I hit the ball. #s 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, & 9 (and that's just from the front 9) all provided tee shots I had to club down, sometimes way down, partly through running out of room and partly through lack of course knowledge (which you would obviously overcome quickly playing it repeatedly).


I wouldn't call this tricked up, just odd and limiting.


-----


I thought more about TR last night. It strikes me as having a lot of interesting shots, but that these shots would eventually become somewhat repetitive. I prefer a course where I can be a little more free-flowing off the tee, probably because my tee shots lead me to unique places each time! I think I would end up developing more of a planned, hop scotch approach to playing a course like TR. Again, I feel the same way about Pete Dye courses, and I seem to be the only person on the site that feels that way, which I'm ok with...

George- I'm not sure how far you hit driver, but if you're typically less than 275- I'm not sure I understand your tee shot issues on 1,2,4,7 and 9.  Maybe you're just mis-remembering but there's no need to club down on any of those.  5 and 16 are really the only holes that require it, unless you're playing something other than the middle or back tees or during a hurricane.

[Peter Pallotta]

Kalen, Tom - this is something I genuinely don't understand or like, this playing of different tees. If the responsibility is on *me* to move from one set of tees to another in order to interact with the architecture in interesting, challenging, fun, and most of all *varied* ways, then the architect hasn't done his job. He has so many, and more than enough, tools at his disposal in designing and building a course i.e. various types of par, a wide range of differing lengths, almost endless directional changes, the freedom to decide for each hole the severity and number of hazards, a scale of recovery options around the greens from very easy to very hard, the chance for canted fairways and uphill and downhill lies, and near endless possibilities re: green contours and slopes. If with all that at his disposal he still can't provide me a journey full of variety -- variety of interest and challenge and shot values and possible scores -- without me having to create/support it for him by moving my tees around, then I really think he has missed the mark. 

Besides, the few times I've moved to different tees during a round, I've always felt dishonest, and like I was  cheating (as if I'd decided that my pawn in a chess game could move 7 spaces instead of 1 or 2, whenever I'm stuck or in trouble or losing badly). Call me a 'card and pencil rube' if you like, but to me if a strong wind is in my face on a long par 4, the architect probably *intended* it to be in may face, and for me to deal with the thought of not reaching the green in regulation; why would I want to move up and make it play more like every other Par 4 on the course?  I take it that many around here do that all the time, move up a set of tees (and presumably never to make a golf hole *harder* or more difficult to score one); ironically, many of those posters are the same ones who tell me that "par doesn't matter".  I honestly don't get it. 

[Greg Taylor]

I don't live in the world of having to dial back your driver to keep it under 300- so for someone who hits it 250 ish on a good driving day- on what holes are these perplexing distance problems from the tee?
If that's a perception I think it may be riding in the same cart as the too many crazy forced carries meme. Sure you may have to pick the right line to hit a bigger driver on every hole- 5 and 16 are the obvious exceptions, long hitters can always try the short route on 5- but to imply it's somehow tricked up (my phrase) because of this is wrong I think.

I seem to have to be apologizing a lot considering I put the course in the Gourmet's Choice section of my book.  But I only did so because I'm open to enjoying courses that are also flawed.

Don't apologise. If you love GCA TR is more than worthy.

[George Pazin]

...unless you're playing something other than the middle or back tees or during a hurricane.

I guess you missed that in my original post. The course recommends tees depending on your handicap, and for mine, they suggest the front tee or second set of markers. I was playing with my then girlfriend/now wife (only course she's ever played, how's that for a 1 off? ) and so I didn't mind playing the first 4 holes from the fronts (despite the incredibly annoying tree blockages on #3 and #4, can't believe they screwed anyone playing those like that). I moved to the 3rd set for holes 5-9, 4th set for 10-15, and then tips for the last few. Didn't much matter which set I played, other than the first three necessitated the layups I specified.


Btw, there is no such meaningful thing as an average drive for me. I hit 75 yard worm burners and 300+ yard beauties with roughly equal likelihood, a couple each per round. I fully understand this is my own shortcoming, I'm not blaming any designer, but it makes playing courses like TR or either of the Pete Dye's I've played pretty frustrating. On the other hand, a course like Mountain Ridge allows this while still providing an incredible amount of interest.


I'm on record on here as being the worst golfer on here, so I tend to view things honestly through the eyes of a HHer (not the silly limited stereotypical notion others view HHers as, but the real deal). I believe more in shot accommodations than shot options.

[Kalen Braley]

Peter P:
 
I can dig where you're coming from, I really can.  As one who works in a industry where I'm given strict requirements and I must make sure our products adhere to them in every imaginable way, I can certainly appreciate the concept of tees on the course telling me where I must start the hole from, and not deviating from that.  Just stick to the program!!
 
And then when I got the chance to play Ballyneal, which has no tee markers, (at least it didn't when I played it), the first few holes felt a bit weird, but I soon found that I was enjoying it immensely after just a few holes.  To finish a hole, and then wander around and find a spot in the short grass and tee away was very liberating.  It some ways, I felt like Neo in The Matrix, my mind had been freed from the boxed in norms of what golf was supposed to be. I had an absolute blast that day going around Ballyneal a couple of times and the experience was nothing short of fantastic.
 
It seems like TR could be that same kind of deal.  Don't bother putting tee marker outs, just let golfers wander around and play from a spot that looks good.  Sure the 1st time around, you may pick a spot and then realize, oh shit, I've bit off more than I can chew, but that's the adventure side of it, which once again, I found very liberating and I think others would too.  Sure its not your daddy golf course, but the "we ain't in Kansas anymore" experience of the course would seem to match not having tees. And given TR looks so unconventional, it looks like the perfect place for such an implementation.
 
To put it in Matt Ward terms, its like eating Steak and Potatoes every night for dinner, again and again and again. And then one night you decide, to hell with it, I'm going to try Thai food.  Risky?  Yes.  Going out on a limb?  Sure.  But in the end most people will find they love it and likely have more fun that day than they ever thought they could.
 
P.S.  Don't think of it as "the burden is on you to find the next tee"...think of it as "I get the chance/privilege to pick where I'm going to play from" 

[Kyle Harris]

Tobacco Road is pure fun, for me and my ilk.

I think it is because for a 6400 yard golf course, the player cannot waste shots around the green and expect to play well.

Duh, Kyle, what's so significant about that? Isn't this true of any golf course?

Yes, but the balance of gaining/saving at Tobacco Road is very alluring. At Tobacco Road, moreso than many other courses, the necessity for sharp play near the hole is both for the reason of capturing an opportunity to gain a shot (or two) or because the player had to spend shots elsewhere in order to play efficiently.

Consider how wasting a shot on holes such as 4 or 11 contrast with the urgency to compromise distance with precision on holes such as 5, 7, or 16. It is rare to find such balance, in such extremes, as at Tobacco Road.

Perhaps my one gripe with Tobacco Road is the lack of a long 200+ one-shot hole.

[Peter Pallotta]

Kalen - that was a very fine post, thanks; and you trump me with your mention of Ballyneal*. And you may be right that I would benefit from adopting the attitude you suggest. But just to say: the reason I enjoy great art (music, writing, films, golf courses etc) is partly for the art itself, partly for the pleasure of experiencing the masters at work, and partly for the joy of appreciating the heights to which the human spirit, and human talent, can reach. When I play a golf course, I like it as a field of play and I enjoy and appreciate it as an aesthetic experience; but I also like to stand back and marvel at what master craftsmen can create when they are at the top of their games. I fill enriched and inspired by great work. And for me, part of that craft/great work is being able to route a flowing course that blends into its surroundings and that, to the point of our exchange, allows me a wide variety of challenges from the set of tees the architect designed/intended to be the cause/maker of those challenges.
Peter


*I've read about Ballyneal not having specific tees and of golfers playing from various places during the round; and, perhaps not surprisingly, I have already decided that if I ever get to Ballyneal I am going to 'play from the tips', i.e. I'm going to find whatever looks like a teeing ground and go to the very back of it on every hole, from the 1st to the 18th, and I'm going to trust that Tom D has designed enough variety and options and lengths that I will be able to get around and 'use every club in my bag' and still stick to my principle of playing from the 'same set of tees' from start to finish! (I have also decided, sight unseen, that I will play any of TD's courses I one day get to play in essentially the same way, i.e. I will always take less off the tee on all the Par 4s and 5s -- say a 5 wood instead of driver  -- and come into the greens with long irons on the safe side...).

[Bill_McBride]

Tobacco Road is pure fun, for me and my ilk.

I think it is because for a 6400 yard golf course, the player cannot waste shots around the green and expect to play well.

Duh, Kyle, what's so significant about that? Isn't this true of any golf course?

Yes, but the balance of gaining/saving at Tobacco Road is very alluring. At Tobacco Road, moreso than many other courses, the necessity for sharp play near the hole is both for the reason of capturing an opportunity to gain a shot (or two) or because the player had to spend shots elsewhere in order to play efficiently.

Consider how wasting a shot on holes such as 4 or 11 contrast with the urgency to compromise distance with precision on holes such as 5, 7, or 16. It is rare to find such balance, in such extremes, as at Tobacco Road.

Perhaps my one gripe with Tobacco Road is the lack of a long 200+ one-shot hole.

Kyle, how long is 14 from the back of the back tee?

[Matt MacIver]

Well, cross-country doesn't work at TR given all the trees, completely opposite of BN. Also BN is a members course built on repeat play while TR is a hit and run once a year while in the area; TR is harder to get to know.

[Bill Faley]

From this discussion I had to check the GCA Tobacco Road profile, as well as the TR website.


The website led me to a "Online Flyover Tour" here: http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/flyovertour.cfm


You may notice that the tour - in all its CGI/Golden Tee glory - is narrated by the worst Scottish accent you have ever heard. It makes Darrell Hammond's Sean Connery impression on Saturday Night Live sound positively native-tongued.


The dilemma now is that I don't know whether to play the course in spite of, or because of, the "tour".

[Matthew Sander]

From this discussion I had to check the GCA Tobacco Road profile, as well as the TR website.


The website led me to a "Online Flyover Tour" here: http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/flyovertour.cfm


You may notice that the tour - in all its CGI/Golden Tee glory - is narrated by the worst Scottish accent you have ever heard. It makes Darrell Hammond's Sean Connery impression on Saturday Night Live sound positively native-tongued.


The dilemma now is that I don't know whether to play the course in spite of, or because of, the "tour".

Bill,


You should play TR for a variety of reasons. The tour you cite is only reason #7.


Trebek...I Garfunkeled your mutha.

[MCirba]

Peter P.,

Throw off the shackles, Kalen is correct.

In the immortal words of Kuato, "Open your mind".   

[Joe Sponcia]

Oddly...I am a 1.5 index and struggled when I played.  A 2nd or 3rd play would reveal the proper angles.  My wife, a legit 35 index played one of her best rounds ever there?  She loved it.  Go figure.


I like True Blue the best, but Caledonia is no slouch. 

[A.G._Crockett]

Boys, if you can't have fun at Tobacco Road, then golf just isn't the game for you.  Try bowling; straight lines, full visibility, nothing weird whatsoever. 

There is ONE valid criticism of The Road, and that is the relatively large difference in the course rating and the slope.  It is a fun, and somewhat easy, golf course IF you are hitting the driver straight and have decent command of the golf ball.  It is very, very tough if you get crooked off the tee, and even tougher if you don't hit irons average height.  Those factors are high up the list of reasons that TR hasn't climbed higher in course rankings.

But every time I play there I start laughing on the first hole, and keep laughing until I hole out on 18.  It is a magnificent piece of art, and I can't imagine what the downside of spending 4 hours playing around on that canvas might be.  I just love the place.

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen, Tom - this is something I genuinely don't understand or like, this playing of different tees. If the responsibility is on *me* to move from one set of tees to another in order to interact with the architecture in interesting, challenging, fun, and most of all *varied* ways, then the architect hasn't done his job. He has so many, and more than enough, tools at his disposal in designing and building a course i.e. various types of par, a wide range of differing lengths, almost endless directional changes, the freedom to decide for each hole the severity and number of hazards, a scale of recovery options around the greens from very easy to very hard, the chance for canted fairways and uphill and downhill lies, and near endless possibilities re: green contours and slopes. If with all that at his disposal he still can't provide me a journey full of variety -- variety of interest and challenge and shot values and possible scores -- without me having to create/support it for him by moving my tees around, then I really think he has missed the mark. 

Besides, the few times I've moved to different tees during a round, I've always felt dishonest, and like I was  cheating (as if I'd decided that my pawn in a chess game could move 7 spaces instead of 1 or 2, whenever I'm stuck or in trouble or losing badly). Call me a 'card and pencil rube' if you like, but to me if a strong wind is in my face on a long par 4, the architect probably *intended* it to be in may face, and for me to deal with the thought of not reaching the green in regulation; why would I want to move up and make it play more like every other Par 4 on the course?  I take it that many around here do that all the time, move up a set of tees (and presumably never to make a golf hole *harder* or more difficult to score one); ironically, many of those posters are the same ones who tell me that "par doesn't matter".  I honestly don't get it.

Peter:


I understand where you're coming from. 


I've built a couple of courses now where they don't put out any tee markers [The Sheep Ranch was the first, it is 100% freewheeling], and my feelings about that depend on how the course is used.  At Ballyneal some guys seem to have fun teeing off from ridiculous spots that have nothing to do with how I thought the hole would be played.  I guess if they're having fun, more power to them.  If you are playing a match there and "winner chooses" the tees, then, you just need to win some holes.


However, I have noticed that on a course where there are carries involved, giving players the option of what tee to play pretty much takes the carries out of play.  When we were building Stonewall, the 6th hole has an optional carry over a creek, so I asked Jay Sigel what distance he could comfortably carry, and then I made the carry twenty yards longer than that ... because I figured he was fibbing just a bit, and because I didn't WANT him to be comfortable on that tee shot.  But if he's just going to move up a tee on that hole, then I can't play on that sort of discomfort.


What I don't worry about is what clubs people are going to hit into greens.  Pete Dye taught me years ago that an architect has no control over that, because average golfers are far too inconsistent off the tee to predict where they'll go.  Plus my experience in the UK was that with the wind, you could be approaching almost any green with a 3-wood in some circumstances.  So, I've always tried to give the people with the 3-wood some way to play their shot, and by doing so, I don't have to worry what they are hitting.


Now, Tobacco Road does not fit that last paragraph at all.  There are a bunch of holes where if you aren't hitting a short iron, or can't hit one with a bit of spin, you just aren't going to hold the green, period.  And that works back through the rest of the course, so now suddenly playing the "right" tee matters, even though it's impossible for the architect to make that work well for someone like George P., or the two kids I played with -- the only way it will work is if the players take it upon themselves to play from a tee that works for them.  And, as I've said, I do think that's asking a lot of them.

[Greg Taylor]

Boys, if you can't have fun at Tobacco Road, then golf just isn't the game for you.  Try bowling; straight lines, full visibility, nothing weird whatsoever. 

There is ONE valid criticism of The Road, and that is the relatively large difference in the course rating and the slope.  It is a fun, and somewhat easy, golf course IF you are hitting the driver straight and have decent command of the golf ball.  It is very, very tough if you get crooked off the tee, and even tougher if you don't hit irons average height.  Those factors are high up the list of reasons that TR hasn't climbed higher in course rankings.

But every time I play there I start laughing on the first hole, and keep laughing until I hole out on 18.  It is a magnificent piece of art, and I can't imagine what the downside of spending 4 hours playing around on that canvas might be.  I just love the place.

Amen !!!

[Chris DeNigris]

Now, Tobacco Road does not fit that last paragraph at all.  There are a bunch of holes where if you aren't hitting a short iron, or can't hit one with a bit of spin, you just aren't going to hold the green, period.  And that works back through the rest of the course, so now suddenly playing the "right" tee matters, even though it's impossible for the architect to make that work well for someone like George P., or the two kids I played with -- the only way it will work is if the players take it upon themselves to play from a tee that works for them.  And, as I've said, I do think that's asking a lot of them.

TD- you got all that out of one play several years ago- very impressive.    I can only think of 2 non par 3 greens that really fit that description (13 and 15)- and 13 is almost always approached with a short iron. (If you're a stud and attempting that green in 2 you better be able to either spin a long iron/hybrid or hit your 9 iron 185.)     After maybe 20 plays, usually from one of the 2 middle tee boxes- I've never experienced the problem that you're illustrating.

[Tom_Doak]

I can only think of 2 non par 3 greens that really fit that description (13 and 15)- and 13 is almost always approached with a short iron. (If you're a stud and attempting that green in 2 you better be able to either spin a long iron/hybrid or hit your 9 iron 185.)     After maybe 20 plays, usually from one of the 2 middle tee boxes- I've never experienced the problem that you're illustrating.

I guess you're right; it's amazing what a couple of really bad examples late in the round [plus the par-3 17th on top of them] will do to cloud one's memory of a course.


However, I still remember distinctly that a kid who could hit the ball through your front door had to juggle tees constantly in order to get around the course reasonably.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The hard part about selecting tees right for you is that TR is a one and done resort course. I would think a small percentage of players go back regularly, and even a year apart on golf trips, hard to recall those kind of details.

[Jerry Kluger]

I think that part of this discussion is how you judge the enjoyment of a course.  I am not talking about architecture or overall quality, rather do you enjoy it.  When I answer that question I have to say about TR that I don't enjoy the course because there are some holes that I simply do not like at all and it usually takes an incredible amount of the time to play unless you get a very early tee time.