News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« on: October 05, 2015, 05:43:26 PM »

It is certainly unique but would you really want to play it on a regular basis? I am trying to figure out what I am missing? 


David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2015, 07:24:15 PM »
You are missing nothing. Tobacco Road is a fun course to play every so often just to mix it up, but I can't imagine playing it all the time as I think it would get tedious and old.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2015, 08:47:16 PM »
Agreed.  I live in Tidewater VA.  On the way to the Sandhills or on the way back home, a round at TR is a hoot (at a lower price point)... but only one round per trip.  It is anti-Ross Sandhills golf and I think the contrast is part of its allure.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2015, 09:14:23 PM »
Higher handicappers have a hard time on the Road.   Lower index guys can cut corners, carry difficult rough...it can be fun but it can bite you in the ass without 225 carry ability. 


Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2015, 09:33:05 PM »
 8)  Well why would anyone really want to play just one course for the rest of their lives, a hypothetical heaven or hell?     


TR is better, more fun than Tot Hill Farm.


TR challenges you synoptically at first, willfully later

[/size]I've played it every time in the area and enjoyed it, love not in the feelings, I love playing SPCC..[size=78%]

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Greg Gilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2015, 10:00:23 PM »
I will admit to only having played it once, many years ago. I played well, had a great time & became entranced by the work of Mike Strantz. It was one of the great "Oh Shit" moments for me, GCA wise,  because it was sooooooo different to anything else I had ever played.

I would certainly love to play it again....some of those funky shots would not be so funky the next time. Not sure I want to play it every day for the rest of my life but I'd probably even say that about TOC, CPC & Pine Valley (my all time 3 favourites).

One other thing - It made me search out Strantz' work - I never found another TR but loved Caledonia, Royal New Kent & even Stonehouse. I recommend anyone who gets the chance to play there. Probably golf's most polarizing course?

PS. Jerry, My wife , who is a good golfer, agrees with you. She played with me that day, got lost on 3 or 4 holes (mostly between greens & tees) and still does not understand my fascination for the place.

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road New
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2015, 10:14:49 PM »
Tobacco Road is truly a spectacular golf course with incredible vision. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I for one would love to play TR every day.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 10:11:15 PM by Frank M »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2015, 10:20:35 PM »
I wasn't a big fan...and I loved Royal New Kent.


Might say something about expectations...had none at RNK, and they were justifiably high on my way to TR.

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2015, 10:39:42 PM »
If Tobacco Road was an elite private club (same location, same layout, better conditioning, and harder for players to access), it would be talked about entirely differently.

WW

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2015, 11:24:11 PM »
I could play it every day; sure it's too hard for me but I'd never have the same shot twice, lots of fun recovery shots and cool short game and putting.

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2015, 11:36:37 PM »
I wouldn't want to play it any more than 36 a day twice or 3 times a week.  Hands down highest fun quotient course I've ever played.  Modern day quirk at it's best. Mike was a genius. Obviously not everyone's cup of tea- but if you love it usually you really love it.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2015, 11:37:58 PM »
I found the course visually intimidating but thought there was a lot of room to play as long as you did not let it intimidate you.  I loved the par 5's around quarry.  The biggest negative for me was the par 3's.  They all seemed very similar.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2015, 05:15:39 AM »
I love The Road simply because someone had the nuts to build it.  We talk about all the great features of the great courses, well, Strantz packed them into this design...maybe overly so...but its better to err on the side of bold rather than insipid.  No, I wouldn't play TR every week nor join if it were a private club...its kept too wet and too expensive for me.  But man, I am in a completely separate camp to those with little time for TR. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2015, 05:41:29 AM »
I have found that people who play golf for "score" are often not happy with TR, while those who play "games" love the place.

We often ask the question: "What makes a great match play course?" IMHO TR is a fabulous matchplay course and an amazingly fun place to play the "game" of golf. I've had more fun playing matches at TR than nearly any other course. It's rollicking golf with temptations everywhere... it's blind shots and hidden perils... it's visual intimidation, but not as difficult as it looks.

I totally disagree with Uncle Bill about the 225 yd carry. One can tack their way around TR without that length carry. The 18th is the scariest, but that's really only a carry of 150-175 if you are playing the appropriate tee.

For pure "Fun" I would put TR in my Top 5 American along with Dismal River White, Ballyhack and Kingsley Club. Not sure of the fifth course... maybe Black Mesa. 
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2015, 08:37:27 AM »
Michael: We are going to have to sit down and discuss the course the next time we get together.  It is strictly a match play course because you often cannot find your ball even if you thought that you hit it in the correct direction and there is no way that you are going to go back and replay the shot.  I have thought about it and there are very few spots on the course where there are serious temptations i.e. risk/reward options. I would suggest that the Dormie Club down the road has far more options and gives you a chance to play a ground game which is not the case at TR.

Ryan Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2015, 09:04:49 AM »
If I lived in the SH region, I don't think I'd want to play TR on a daily basis. To many other great choices in the area - #2, MP, PN and SP. Ross designs seem to age well and the subtle nature of his green complexes make repeat play all the more enjoyable as you're faced with a new challenge each round.


However, I echo the thoughts of Michael. TR is an explosion of gca and very different from what I grew up with in the Midwest. I loved the heroic nature of his Par 5's and one can really shoot a low number if they're on their game and able to look past the visual intimidation. Fun, fun golf course to play. Does it have it's faults, yes. (target golf from many of the tees, forced carries, experimental design features gone bad, similar length par 3's, etc.)


Using an art analogy - Strantz-Dali / Ross-Monet / MacKenzie-Van Gogh
"Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up."

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2015, 09:11:59 AM »
Jerry/All,

I had a similar opinion and this earlier thread I believe had some interesting observations.  Thanks.   

  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42801.0.html
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2015, 09:31:09 AM »
At Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm in particular, Mike Strantz stretched (and, perhaps, sometimes broke) the boundaries of what is "acceptable" in golf course architecture. It seems to have been built as a course that people would play if they were visiting the Pinehurst area. As such, it is best viewed as a radical counterpoint to the remaining stock of courses in the area.

So, it is misguided to ask oneself if one would enjoy it as a home course as a test of TR's merit, because that is pretty emphatically not its raison d'ętre. Stripping away that question and looking at it in its context, it's hard to deny its grandeur and importance as an indicator for just how bold a golf course architect can be. I think it's a crucial part of the golf world and should be enjoyed and preserved as much and for as long as possible.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2015, 09:39:48 AM »
I have not played it (it's on my short list to do so) but to me Tobacco Road seems like the perfect example of something WAY outside the norm for design.

People complain that courses have become too similar and homogeneous, and then something like Tobacco Road gets built, people complain that it's too weird and quirky. 

As Tim above me says, "it's a crucial part of the golf world" and to dismiss it is to dismiss free thinking and new ideas. 

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2015, 10:27:28 AM »
For a long time, I thought that no modern architect could ever build a hole like the 10th at Yale. And then I played Tobacco Road and realized I was wrong. The conditioning might not be the best (but then, it never is at Yale either), but I would put TR in my top 10 if I was ranking based solely on fun. I've played there twice, loved it both times, and would be thrilled if I could play there every day.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2015, 10:37:32 AM »
I've played all but one of Strantz's designs.  His courses are like nothing you've ever played.  Except for Bull Ball and Monterey, his courses are resort and offer something different than predictable courses nearby.  I love his stuff, but of course I belong to Ballyhack and Musgrove Mill, which are anything but run of the mill.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2015, 11:45:58 AM »
I have thought about it and there are very few spots on the course where there are serious temptations i.e. risk/reward options.


Well, you and I are playing different courses!  ???


Just consider the first hole:


From the opening tee shot you are challenged to make decisions... do you launch a shot over the right hill or thread one down the "valley." On first play the angles and depth perception are very disconcerting and many players get off to a bad start because they are intimidated and make a poor choice or swing. Once you are off the tee you now have to decide if you are going to challenge the crossing dune or lay up short for your approach to the green. Decisions, decisions. Once that shot has been executed you either have a mid to short iron over the dune or a pitch and run to the green... unless you are a big hitter who has knocked it onto to the green. The green steeply runs away from the golfer making the approach require an even more deft touch. Now to putting... the severe slope means you are putting uphill, downhill, left or right no matter where the putt.


Now put all these variables into the context of a match where you are making your shot decisions based on the success (or lack thereof) of your opponent and you have a LOT going on... and, a lot of fun.


I find all 18 holes offer these kinds of decisions and fun. But, that's just me.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Greg Taylor

Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2015, 11:46:28 AM »
It's great. Fun to play and condition was great when I played it.


Hopefully heading back there in Nov...!

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2015, 11:52:35 AM »
Sorry for the re-post, but here's what I wrote back in 2010.   I haven't been back since, unfortunately, but do think these comments still likely hold true, IMHO. 


Tobacco Road is possibly the most original, artistic, and creative golf course built in the past 30 years, and for style points alone Tobacco Road gets all 10's. 
 
I've struggled more in my mind with how to accurately critiqueTobacco Road than any course I've ever played, simply because it is that good and original in concept, with bold architectural statements and death-defying visuals that may be the most anxiety-producing in the game.   
 
But, somewhat sadly, it may also be where the "return to classic" values movement of the past fifteen years and the rugged look inherent with that genre actually "jumped the shark" and began to become a caricature of itself.
 
I say that because as stunningly exhilerating as the course looks, large portions of it don't work well at all for golf.   The bold sculpting of the land creates bowls in many spots that 1) don't drain well at all despite the obvious catchbasins, and 2) collect every ball within a large radius to the same divot-filled mucky pocket.  For a course built within the sandhills of NC, Strantz's mass shaping seems to have interrupted the natural drainage patterns of the land enough that sheet-drainage to a large extent fails to take place.   Instead, water flows down from the top of slopes natural and man made into bowls that stay soggy all the time, such as through the narrow gap between the mounds on the very first hole, or the two bowls that make up the entire fairway of the 16th hole.
 
Many of the bunkers have been built with such freakishly steep fronting slopes that they are seemingly permanently filled with rivulets from washouts and have to require constant maintenance attention.   The bunkers themselves are so extensively pervasive that in many cases they become preferred landing zones for better players with their hardpacked sand, a surface that provides little challenge for top golfers yet gives hackers fits.
 
Other faults include the number of lengthy forced carries dictated by the design choices.   For a weaker player, the course would be a nightmare, even played at the 5880 yard tees.   Despite the width of many holes, lost ball locations loom large throughout.
 
In a way, it is a study in "maximalism", where almost every hole is lacking restraint in terms of man-made features juxtaposed with natural attributes.   I suspect the ground pre-construction was good enough to have yielded something perhaps with perhaps less visual histrionics and more excellent golf.   
 
At some point over the past twenty years, golf has become less a sporting endeavor and more "entertainment", and certainly as an architect, Mike Strantz was a Master Showman who will be missed and whose best work will live on and even be studied to understand where he effectively stretched the envelope beyond the common and mundane of the art. 
 
However, on what might have been his greatest canvas, I can't help but feel that style took precedence over substance, and his lack of restraint on an already challenging, rugged site has created a course that is wonderful to look at, but one in which I can't imagine much enjoying repeated plays, even given the horizontal flexibility that Strantz admittedly built in.
 
This is a course that seemingly had the potential to be a Top 20 Modern with a little more attention to fundamental details and a bit more discipline in execution.   Instead of being another Kingsley Club, it is closer to something Desmond Muirhead might have delivered on his wackiest day.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ryan Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2015, 12:11:14 PM »
Great post and perfectly stated. If IF a little restraint was shown and the club was exclusive, where would the club rank in Golfweek Modern? (I agree with Sean - exclusivity seems to add to the allure for some folks)
"Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up."