Does SHCC represent AWT's most unique green complexes ?

[Josh Stevens]

To hark back to a previous thread of Pats about green speeds, how for example would that 5th green play at various speeds?

I am not sure I have the scale quite right and I am not sure of the angles of approach, but these small violent features  would suggest they were designed for sub 10 speeds.  Could you really have the pin in the location shown in the pic if the greens were 12?  Looks like you would easily get 10 ft of run off that slope behind the pin

[Jon Cavalier]

To hark back to a previous thread of Pats about green speeds, how for example would that 5th green play at various speeds?

I am not sure I have the scale quite right and I am not sure of the angles of approach, but these small violent features  would suggest they were designed for sub 10 speeds.  Could you really have the pin in the location shown in the pic if the greens were 12?  Looks like you would easily get 10 ft of run off that slope behind the pin

Josh:

Here's a pic to show you the scale:


The mounds are actually quite large, relatively speaking. Also, for what it's worth, the club never pins the green between the mounds.

As for angles of approach - the mounds cover the back right quadrant of the green. This photo shows the green more or less from the front:

[Josh Stevens]

ok, so the mounds are at the back.  That's different, otherwise they would be bordering on goofy.  Is there any modern course in the world with features that pronounced with fast greens?

Not a green on which to miss long. I suppose that in iteslef presents a challenge

[Jon Cavalier]

Josh:

True - not a green to miss long. The severity of the mounds is also mitigated by the fact that the hole is a short par 4 - only 343 yards - so with a wedge in the hands of most players, the penalty for the bad miss which brings those mounds into play is a just one.

The mounds on the 12th at Garden City (which also, like Somerset Hills, has fast greens) are as pronounced as those you see above.

[David Cronheim]

I couldn't agree more with the proposition of the thread - that these are AWT's best greens. I've been quite fortunate to play SHCC dozens of times and what makes the course so interesting (and confounding) is how much of an effect the pin location has on how a hole plays. I don't think I've ever played a course where the location of the pins so completely dictated a change in strategy for an approach shot (and positioning off the tee). The course doesn't just force you to change clubs up or down to reach a location, but often forces a total rethink of how to get the ball close.

For example, on #12 (the devilish short par 3 over the water), I will hit one of three clubs depending on the pin location, but try to land the ball in exactly the same spot on the right side of the green. A 9-iron to spin back to a front pin, a 3/4 8-iron to a middle pin, and a 7-iron that I take 35 yards off to get the ball to release to a back pin. All the action happens after the ball hits the green.

Even the lone "flat" green on the course (#3) is brilliant because it's a green where you're hitting a blind severely uphill approach and would love to have something other than a tabletop. It makes distance control absolutely dependent not just on distance, but trajectory and spin. I think I've yet to hit it inside of 15' there. Anywhere else, it'd be a ho-hum green but it stands out exactly because its so different and so well thought out. It challenges golfers to do something we're bad at - gauging the first bounce with a wedge.

I always tell people that what makes SHCC so good is that collectively, I think it has the best 18 greensites in the country (with the notable exception of the altered, non-AWT green at #10). But I prove that by pointing out there are maybe 9-10 greens that if put on any other golf course would be THE best green on the course. I'd put any of #2, #5, #6, #7, #8, #11, #12, #13, #14, #15, and the wildly under-rated #18 on almost any course and it would be a standout.

The greens that AWT noted in interview from when the club opened that he was particularly fond of were #2, #11, #12, and #14. He was particularly pleased with what he noted was a five-tiered green on #14 with an infinity edge overlooking the lake below.

I think SHCC is as fun a test of golf as you can find anywhere in the USA.

[Tom_Doak]

David:


That 11th green [one of the few Jon didn't have a photo of] is especially difficult.



If you like all those greens so much you would love the ones I played today -- the Valliere course at Morfontaine in Paris.  They make most of the greens at Somerset Hills look tame!  However many of them feature punchbowl areas within the green that takes some of the fright out of downhill putts.  It's when you're in the bowls, and having to putt up a 2- or 3-foot rise to a narrow high shelf, that you are more likely to putt off the green.

[Jon Cavalier]

David:


That 11th green [one of the few Jon didn't have a photo of] is especially difficult.

Tom & David:

Here you go - the 11th green at Somerset Hills:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon,


In my fore some, our drives left us 63 to 80 yards from the green, leaving Lob and Sand Wedges into # 5.


Please disregard evaluative statements made by those who have never seen/played the hole.


Tom Doak,


We found # 11 green to be......... Insidious in it's deceit.
The left side of the green breaks away from the water
The sharp fall offs left and back are intimidating.


Having played SHCC over 50 years, to coin a phrase from Tom MacWood, I think it's at it's high water mark, architecturally, today.


Great work in preserving and highlighting a wonderful golf course.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I appreciate the compliment, but nearly all the credit for the work at Somerset Hills belongs with my associate Brian Schneider.  The only thing I really did was get them to write a mission statement to tell us what direction they wanted to go.

At some point we may fix that 10th green but not sure how.  A few want to put it back to the original par-4 but that was never a great hole; others want us to create a new green for the current par-5, but it's a tall order to build a new green that fits in with all those siblings.

[Steve Lapper]

Tom,


  Certainly, Brian and yourself deserve mucho credit. Several very wise members, led by KD also deserve credit for finally understanding their gem needed some direction and TLC. Above all, their hire of Ryan Tuxhorn, fresh from the tutelage of Matt Schaffer, made a world of difference. Surface playability improved about 1000% since Ryan took over. He really transformed practices there to bring it up to date. It's no longer the sleepy "Shabby Chic" it so well earned before.


  As for possibly reworking the 10th, any new green above, aside or behind the existing one will be a struggle, as that corner of the property is stifled for airflow and sunlight. Nearly every spring the 10th, 4th, and 6th greens are amongst the last, and toughest to round into good condition.


Pat,


  Playing from the Ladies tee is indeed admirable. Congrats on finally making it up there! I'll be over there later today and try to better understand where your game is being played from these days.


David,


   Superb observations. The pin placements are so very strategic. What is always fun is to see how bomber's mess up when they pound their tee shots indiscriminately to (often enough) the wrong places. Their subsequent approaches from such places provide consistent entertainment for the fellow golfers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Playing from the Ladies tee is indeed admirable. Congrats on finally making it up there! I'll be over there later today and try to better understand where your game is being played from these days.

Steve,
 
I've been driving the ball well, but, hitting my irons terribly.
 
The only fairway I missed was 15 when I hit a really good drive that just ran through the fairway on the dogleg, leaving me 140 in.
 
The 15th green is massive and the use of that creek combined with the contouring/slope is brilliant, especially when you're playing off of a downhill lie.
 
I love the aerial photo from 1953 that's hanging in the clubhouse.
 
It's apparent that the 60's, 70's and 80's saw the peak of arbor committees.
 
P.S.  One day, you'll hit it as long as I do........... at 73.

[Steve Lapper]

Having just played there this afternoon, one last thing:


  Where else on this planet will you find a near perfect Principals Nose bunker in front of a Par 4 Biarritz (no. 13)??


  I told two member's of the club today that it might be fair to call SHCC "AWT's Accidental Mona Lisa!" 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,


SHCC is an interesting in that it's remote, even by today's standards.


What, or rather who, brought AWT to that neck of a the woods


Other than # 10, I think it's virtually untouched from opening day.
I forgot to "dial in" on # 10'green in the 1953 aerial.
Do you r call the year the 10th green was moved and who crafted the current green?


7, 8 and 9 make for a much more difficult finish than 16, 17 and 18.


Perhaps the current rotation provides for a more pleasant finish.


Whomever led the movement to restore the course and get it F & F should be recognized and praised.


It's very difficult to alter the culture of a club, but someone did a great job

[Thomas Dai]

Out of interest, how well and in which directions does this green drain during/following a heavy deluge of rain and does it suffer from what I might term 'soft areas' at other times?






atb

[Steve Lapper]

Out of interest, how well and in which directions does this green drain during/following a heavy deluge of rain and does it suffer from what I might term 'soft areas' at other times?






atb

The green drains back to front (it has two pit-like fronting bunkers that catch short shots). It is also sits on the on a relatively soft slope just underneath the higher points of the property, but still farther away from the lowest ones. Tom Doak could better address the exact soil structure, but after any torrential deluge, the entire course drains reasonable well. Unlike most of its neighbors, it's not on a bed of complete clay.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thomas,

The green has a back to front pitch and drainage isn't a substantive issue.

I think one of the things that the ODG's did very well with "push-up" greens is account for surface drainage.

[Mark_Fine]

Played Somerset Hills again yesterday.  It gets better every time I see it.  It was in exceptional condition and I applaud the work that has been done there over the years.  The greens are truly the highlight of the golf course.  Whether they are Tillinghast's most unique is hard to say as he did some amazing sets but they clearly greens that anyone interested in classic golf course architecture should see and study.  And by the way, I think it is an exceptional piece of property for a golf course. Great topo and lots of variety.   

[Will Lozier]

These greens look rollicking! Lovely!