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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« on: September 28, 2015, 08:58:26 PM »
I continue to be amazed at how undulation influences greatness in the minds of so many critics....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2015, 09:03:21 PM »
Flatness is so desired. We can get greens running at 12.  Bomb and don't think.  Don't wanna have to hit the 6 iron bumper, let's pull out thee lobber.  Please explain to us when undulations are admired it is in vogue with the masses? 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2015, 09:15:32 PM »
Ben,

I will use one of mine as an example.  I had an owner at Heritage in ATL who could not be satisfied with the actual lay of the land and the routing allowed for the use of the land.  His friends were building across town and he was continuously wanting more and more "pizazz".  After he pissed of the county government with a few issues we were told to keep all water from a hole on the hole until it reached the lake.  We spent untold monies on cutting into exisitng land and creating mounding and catch basins with pipe that would have been completely unnecessary.  Fortunately we were able to maintain some sanity to the greens slopes even though it was a continuous battle and they were more severe than I would like.  Today I would have put up more of a fuss.  Have never been satified with it.

But today it seems some shapers get out of control and all types of contours exist in an effort to impress the writers or something...hell I don't know. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2015, 09:32:29 PM »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2015, 09:44:47 PM »
Mike - I could blather on about this for a long time, but to put my thoughts as succinctly as I can:

A dramatic site with natural elevation changes and contours (either natural and/or enhanced) can serve as the basis for a truly wonderful golf course and for an exciting and challenging golfing experience. But if it doesn't end up serving those ends/goals, or more properly if it doesn't quite serve them as well as it might have, it is more difficult for most observers/critics to identify and quantify and qualify those failings than it would be if the course had been built on a flatter/less dramatic site instead.  The visual feast of the former can't but occupy at least part of the minds of at least a good percentage of critics and raters and photographers; while with the latter the attention is left to focus almost entirely on the pure fundamentals, i.e. strategy and drainage and variety and challenge etc. Now, the very good architects (on their very good days) can produce work that survives and even flourishes under that scrutiny -- the pure fundamentals are clearly made manifest; but I can understand why most architects (most of the time) might like the security of a bit of "cover" if they are working on a less than ideal/flat site, i.e. the contours that can lessen the intensity of that scrutiny. And so if the contours aren't there naturally, they create them.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 09:47:35 PM by PPallotta »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2015, 09:53:02 PM »
the pure fundamentals are clearly made manifest; but I can understand why most architects (most of the time) might like the security of a bit of "cover" if they are working on a less than ideal/flat site, i.e. the contours that can lessen the intensity of that scrutiny. And so if the contours aren't there naturally, they create them.
Peter,
But they need to be created with meaning and not in excess.  IMHO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2015, 09:59:52 PM »
It's true, Mike, and that would be ideal and what we should expect from architects. But when the meaning is essentially "obfuscation" and "visual misdirection" in support of less scrutiny on the fundamentals and of potentially greater job security, I have to assume that some architects decide that "excess" is a virtue and not a vice, i.e. that more visual misdirection will serve its purpose better than less. 
Peter

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2015, 10:02:53 PM »
It's true, Mike, and that would be ideal and what we should expect from architects. But when the meaning is essentially "obfuscation" and "visual misdirection" in support of less scrutiny on the fundamentals and of potentially greater job security, I have to assume that some architects decide that "excess" is a virtue and not a vice, i.e. that more visual misdirection will serve its purpose better than less. 
Peter
Peter,
I agree.  But the navy blazer still lives.  the yellow double knit leisure suit didn't make it. ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2015, 10:06:03 PM »
This is turning into one of those spankers threads... :D :D

Peter Pallotta

Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2015, 10:08:20 PM »
 :)

Let's hold on to that example - though I think golf is so fun and addictive (for those who love the game) that some would happily *play* a golf course they wouldn't be caught dead *wearing*


 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2015, 05:11:26 AM »
Mike


Undulation of all sorts and sizes IS important to greatness.  Like bunkers, archies can sometimes get carried away.  While I think I understand your complaint that undulations can sometimes be over-used, the real problem is if undulations don't make sense or if they are used in the wings of the course which have little impact. I always think the archie's role is to enhance what already exists...go with the flow.  However, I would never begrudge an archie the scope of getting wild here and there even at the expense of going against the flow...but I want the feature to be in the middle of the park or creating added width to make the middle of the park more interesting/important.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Wilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2015, 08:08:43 AM »
Undulation for the sake of undulation can lead to ululation for the sake of undulation. 


What I like about undulation is the ready made, prefabbed, built-in excuse it provides me for my missed shots.  Missing from a lie above or below your feet is so less distressing than blowing one from a perfectly level driving range lie.  So seen in that light, undulation actually diminishes the likelihood of ululation.  Once again travel fatigue results in a post best described as stream of barely consciousness. 





Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2015, 10:36:06 AM »
In the mind of some, Sweeten's Cove, maybe an example of undulation for its own sake.  It would take me several more plays and some more thought to come to that conclusion.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2015, 12:36:47 PM »
As far as kids hit the ball these days, the only real defense a course has are their greens. In order to make the course more difficult than a pitch and putt, undulation is added. What's the problem?
Mr Hurricane

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2015, 01:39:27 PM »
As far as kids hit the ball these days, the only real defense a course has are their greens. In order to make the course more difficult than a pitch and putt, undulation is added. What's the problem?

I'm with Jim on this one.  I think building undulation into a course can add interest to a hole where there is otherwise none.
 
I've also seen it used to try to add challenge for long bombers.  A local course here in Utah placed a bunch of undulation in the typical landing zone of long hitters on several long holes, where the average person has no chance of  reaching off the tee.  Sure they may still only have a 9 iron into the green, but the level of difficulty is increased with a downhill, sidehill lie.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2015, 03:03:35 PM »
I agree that there can be undualtion that doesn't make "sense" but Mike, do you think a bigger issue facing the architecture world today is undulation added for no real strategic reason or undulation removed to accomodate modern green speeds?


What are your thoughts on the undulation on the "old" 14th green at East Lake.  As a college kid I remember thinking it was pretty cool but had no notion or idea of why or liked it or if there was anything "strategic" about it.


Anyone else here play "old" East Lake's 14th green and have any thoughts?  It may be an example of what you are describing--that green certainly did not "fit" with the rest of the course so maybe it was a candidate??  Just asking.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2015, 06:25:29 PM »
Mike - are you thinking specifically about overly undulating greens?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2015, 08:53:11 PM »
Michael,,
I'm thinking all parts, greens and fairways and bunkers...

Jim F,
I'm not saying no undulation.  I'm saying undulation for the sake of undulation.

Chris,
I think we see it the same way...it was around the 1970's we began to shape fairways where before we had usually just shaped greens and tees.  Until that time EXISTING UNDULATIONS DETERMINED ROUTINGS AND STRATEGIES AS MUCH AS ANYTHING OUT THERE.  Greens with strategic undulations are what make a good course.   But so often today a shaper gets loose and the same repeated movement is done over and over and every 150 feet or less a catch is shaped and then he comes to greens and bunkers and just repeats but the critic is often fooled into thinking all of this movement means GOOD.  On open land where a shaper can draw an earth form out for a few hundred yards it can be hidden and look more natural than in a restricted fairway width.  Strategic undulation is one thing then other is for the birds...
As for 14 at EL....I don't remember much of it...plus you are much older than myself and may recall more...

PS..you want to go to SC Golf assoc with me on 1/9/16?  You might could make some comments...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2015, 05:55:51 AM »
Undulation presumably can be there for very valid reasons that have nothing to do with the actual golf architecture, but with economics

It is a fact that the human eye is drawn to movement and clutter.  Place the average punter on the tee of two holes - one a  wide but flat hole, with a ground level green, but one or two very nice strategic hazards that present the challenge of angles and running approaches.  The other a wild ride of bump,  swales and all sorts of crappy eye candy but in reality asks little more than to smack it down the middle..

Which will the punter think is the best and will pay to play?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2015, 10:17:11 AM »
Mike, It's how those undulations are created (if needed) that's the art. Repeated undulations, of similar size, scale, and, placement, deserves the wrath of critics, or even us ignorant players. Exhibit "A"; Tim Nugent's 18th hole at the garbage dump. Port side?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 10:20:19 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2015, 12:39:45 PM »
Adam, I agree.  Most of us have habits, including architects and shapers, and avoiding human repetition is key to emulating infinitely randomness in nature.  In truth though, I think many if not must humans actually respond best to shaping that is somewhat naturalistic, but also has a bit more order than nature, so sometimes it works out.

In more practical terms, I study those who shape everywhere to see what works best. I do recall even Pete Dye fell victim to repetition.  I asked one of his workers who though the reason some of their early fairway shaping was regular was because they used to place catch basins after every 4th stick of drain pipe, or about 80 foot on center. I thought the result was noticeably repetitive.

Probably the best shaping architects are Fazio and maybe Dana Fry.  What I notice about their shaping is that long ridges start well outside the fairway and tail off 1/3, 1/2 or even 2/3 across the fairway.  And never perpendicular to the line of play or with it, always at angles.  The worst shaping (IMHO, and I have been guilty of it) is where the architect is clearly working to the fairway lines and the fairway is flattish at about 2-3% and the mounds are 20-33%, with little transition.

It reminds me of something Dick Nugent taught us (making the shaping at Harbor Side a bit hard to figure out) is to (back in the pure pencil on paper days) grade with the green shape, fairway edge, etc. but put those shapes on one layer and trace the contours on another.  Then, take out the edge layer and grade again, focusing mostly on the art of the contour lines without regard to shape. Always comes out better.

Also, it pays to mimic nature, and the tops of mounds ought to be similar to nature, maybe double.  In other words, in say, Iowa on land where you might see a 10% slope max, (Yes, I know, not all Iowa is flat like that) the skyline of any grading should be not more than 20%, etc.  Going from flat to 25% doesn't come close to look natural.

As to fairways, I never forget the time I was instructed to grade fairways at 4-6%, because the terrible quality irrigation water burned turf if it didn't drain fast enough. I liked it a lot more than the standard 2-3% typically used in fairways.  And, golfers would say it was strategic.  No shot is ever the same if you play off gently rolling lies from slightly different positions every day.  At the greater slopes, the lie must be factored into how you hit the shot.

So, someone would have to define what undulation for undulations sake is for me.....

As to greens, I can see it. In one sense. they do serve a very limited function of receiving shots and generally allowing a two putt.  So, given these restrictions and a general limit on size, its easier to argue on most designs to limit the excess undulations.

Most of us know the basic rules of how to achieve that, and some would argue that adding "random contours" or steeper than cuppable slopes just for looks or challenge is undulation for undulations sake, and the super would argue that you should keep the green size to the minimum required to keep his budgets reasonable.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2015, 01:28:37 PM »
Mike - I know you don't like to call out another's work and I respect that... but, can you give an example of a hole that exhibits "undulation for the sake of undulation" and is considered "great" in the "minds of so many critics."


Did you experience something this past weekend that brought this topic to the top of your mind?  ???   I did.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2015, 02:49:59 PM »
Mike Strantz at Tobacco Road and Royal New Kent.  How much shaping did he do there?  An extraordinary amount, I guess.
Was it his talent that allowed him to pull that off and not look silly?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2015, 05:46:59 PM »
Jeff, Thanks for that description of how you were taught.

I remember Pete's berm period. It became expected, but only to block undesirable external views and noise. If I'm remembering correctly? Also, It was way before I had any notions or even a speckle of a thought about gca, beyond, "Who designed it".
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Undulation for the sake of undulation...
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2015, 08:58:40 PM »
Michael,
Well I did see some and it happened to come after I had spent a day at an Engh course which is not my favorite type of shaping and I consider it undulating for the sake of undulating.  Before I go further let me say that I am guilty of it in the past.  If you ever play my Heritage course in Atlanta it is way over undulated and I allowed it to happen. 
Jeff gives a very good description of what I mean in his post above.  He describes PD and how he trained shapers and I have used those guys in the past and you have to really stay on top of it to keep from having basin after basin every 100 feet in repetition.  However PD does a good job of mixing strategic undulation with undulation for undulation.  Jeff also  mentions Dana tying in very long earthforms which is the most natural way to do it.   

I just think it's an easy way to get bang....so often I hear or see critics salivating over undulation and the actual bones are not that great.  GCGC is a good example of subtle and good undulation.  Loxahatchie is undulation for undulation sake and IMHO so is Arcadia Bluffs...I see guys freak out over it and tell me how much better it is than CD and you just sort of stare at them but it proves the point..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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