How short can a hole be and still be considered great?

[Ben Hollerbach]

Holes like the 7th at Pebble Beach and the 8th at Troon are applauded for being par 3 holes of great challenge but few yards. What if these holes were scaled down 50% and played around 50-70 yards long would they still be great? If not, how short is too short to appropriately challenge the player.


In the same vein, could one build a great par 4 of less than 260 yards that would not be viewed by the golfing public as a poor long par 3 or an easy par 4?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Holes like the 7th at Pebble Beach and the 8th at Troon are applauded for being par 3 holes of great challenge but few yards. What if these holes were scaled down 50% and played around 50-70 yards long would they still be great? If not, how short is too short to appropriately challenge the player.


In the same vein, could one build a great par 4 of less than 260 yards that would not be viewed by the golfing public as a poor long par 3 or an easy par 4?

I think 50 yards is too short but I think you could have a great hole under 100 yards. Maybe architects are too frightened to go under 'triple digits' but I think if the right opportunity popped up I would do it, problems are that the tee sizes and areas often mean that its 15 yards less off the front tee and the green is perhaps 12 yards nearer than the middle (measured point) so 80 yards is 53 yards front to front and at 70 yards its just 43 yards, that in my opinion restricts the shortest yardage to 90 yards.
I think the 260 yard par 4 can easily be great there are lots of concepts to attract the player to try and make eagle with a severe penalty for error, that severe penalty does not always have to as obvious as OOB or water, a clever slope taking the ball away to a place where getting up and down in 2 is very hard and quite difficult even in 3.

[Jon Wiggett]

I would imagine that the 10th at Rivera would fit the bill playing from that distance. There is a par three at Crossland Heath which is just under the 100 yards if memory serves me right that is a cracking tester of a hole and the second at Cleckheaton GC is also a cracker at 120 yards from the yellows.

Jon

[Ben Hollerbach]

I think 50 yards is too short but I think you could have a great hole under 100 yards. Maybe architects are too frightened to go under 'triple digits' but I think if the right opportunity popped up I would do it, problems are that the tee sizes and areas often mean that its 15 yards less off the front tee and the green is perhaps 12 yards nearer than the middle (measured point) so 80 yards is 53 yards front to front and at 70 yards its just 43 yards, that in my opinion restricts the shortest yardage to 90 yards.
I think the 260 yard par 4 can easily be great there are lots of concepts to attract the player to try and make eagle with a severe penalty for error, that severe penalty does not always have to as obvious as OOB or water, a clever slope taking the ball away to a place where getting up and down in 2 is very hard and quite difficult even in 3.

Adrian,


At this distance, couldn't it be possible to only have 1 set of tees or one distance to play from but the tee difference would be based upon angle? This would allow for the hole to be shorter but never get too short. This may be especially useful if certain pin positions promoted the use of a more grounded approach shot.


I could imagine a one shot hole with a sub 2000 sqft green could play very sportingly from 65 or 70 yards with the right contours. It seems a hole like this is sure to exist on a pitch and putt course somewhere.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I took those things into consideration really. A tee even if its very wide (angles) still needs 15 yards of depth to tolerate the wear. Now factor every shots a pitch  loads of divots even at 450 squared yards that 30 wide and 15 deep. The same with greens 2000 square feet is absolutely tiny with lots of waste it only allows about a third to be used for pins as you cant use the last 8 feet to the edge.....those take the hole out of greatness and take it to silliness for me.
Shortest one I have ever done is 104 yards, green is about 4000 squared feet (again for agronomic reasons I am not sure you can go much smaller than that), tees are 6000 and they are angled, I think a front pin off the very front of the tee it could measure 82 yards. One of the reasons we made it very short was it is the 1st hole and we wanted the hole to play quickly so we could keep to 8 minute start times rather than 10 or more minutes. Its on an island green, but a situation like a green in a quarry or on a ledge could still cause quite a nervy tee shot. I think its a case of the golf reasons fighting with the agronomic ones that stop the sub 100 yarders.

[archie_struthers]

 




Don't know if it's great , but the short downhill par three at Merion West might be it .

[Thomas Dai]

Holes like the 7th at Pebble Beach and the 8th at Troon are applauded for being par 3 holes of great challenge but few yards.

Being downhill these two famous examples play even shorter than the on-the-card yardage.
Atb

[Steve Wilson]

Holes like the 7th at Pebble Beach and the 8th at Troon are applauded for being par 3 holes of great challenge but few yards.

Being downhill these two famous examples play even shorter than the on-the-card yardage.
Atb

Bingo. 


And rather than worry about having a single tee, I think it would be more interesting to have a tee for shorter hitters that would allow a running approach.  Having played a lot of golf with those who can't loft the ball, the availability of the ground game on short holes or approaches is nearly a requirement for greatness in my mind.   


Perhaps you could have a very large, potentially larger than the green itself, tee box to provide relief against excessive wear from the myriad of pitches (or sclaffs).  That would cause some head scratching.


It would also provide an enigmatic GCA thread title "Tees Larger than Greens, Fact or Fiction."   

[Tom_Doak]

There have been a few par-3 holes on celebrated courses that got down just under 100 yards [a la the "two or twenty" hole at Engineers, but a certain percentage of golfers will never accept that a hole that short is "great".  So I guess the question is whether you are looking for something like unanimous opinion.  Even the 7th at Pebble has its detractors ... the Postage Stamp is probably the shortest hole I know that no one questions as great.


For short par-4's, I don't think there is a barrier.  The 12th at Barnbougle and the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach are both under 270 yards [they measure in meters there so I can't remember exactly how long they are] and they have few detractors.  The 7th at Tara Iti is going to be another one in that class.

[Josh Tarble]

One thing about both Pebble #7 and the Postage Stamp, the wind can howl at both places.  In those situations a simple pitch can be one of the trickiest shots.  I would have to guess that if either hole were on a generic course with no wind, they may not be looked at as highly. 

[Ed Brzezowski]

Don't know if it's great , but the short downhill par three at Merion West might be it .

Fully agree Archie, if not great it's in the zipcode of great.

[Rich Goodale]

11th at Applebrook

[Carl Rogers]

C & C's Dormie Club in West End, NC (near Pinehurst), 12th hole maybe 125 from the tips.  Slightly up hill, canting left, a little blind. Probably not great, but IMO very good.  After some long holes, a refreshing change.

[cary lichtenstein]

The 7th at Pebble Beach, I bet i've played it 150 with high single digit partners. I would always hit a much sand wedge and almost never missed the green, but my playing companions din't have that shot and the hole terrorized this guys. They were handicaps of 8,10,12. The elevation and wind required a precise trajectory and they didn't have that shot.


The 8th hole at Pebble was far tougher for me. I always laid up with a 3 wood and had a 7 wood (most of the time) into that green. I bet I hit it 25% of the time because I was either a bit long or a bit left, not wanting to be short or right ever. That was one tough short par 4.


The 4th hole at Pebble, a true short par 4 also never gave me much trouble because it fit my game again. A drive to the left side and the same such sand wedge were perfect for this hole.


The old 5th hole terrorized me as I always hit a big draw and there was no room to move the ball right to left. Only 5 and 9 were difficult holes for me on the front 9.

[Phil McDade]

Is the 13th at Merion East a great hole? It's under 130 yds I believe; certainly ruined Mickelson's U.S. Open chances.