Shinnecock Today

[RSantangelo]

Folks

Hello everyone.  I am new to the board and am pleased to be here.  I had the good fortune top find Golf Club Atlas about 6 months ago and have thoroughly enjoyed and benefited from the wonderful content.  Thanks to you all.

I had the opportunity to play Shinnecock today for the second time and it was a blast.  A few observations and questions for the group.

1.  A lot of fun...no other way to describe it...we need more golf like this...thanks to Tom and other architects that are designing great courses again today

2.  Photos of 1896 Open - didn't look closely enough last time...worth the time if you are there....a bunch of these were shot right where the 9th hole (current) finishes ...noticeable the sandy/grass mixture in the rough where they posed...always interesting to see from where the game came and how much it has changed....that sandy feel of Pinehurst 2 post the restoration

3.  Back Nine - I was so absorbed last time I didn't notice how different the back and front feel, and would probably put 9 in that camp also....the back was so memorable I can pretty much effortlessly recall each hole/shot...really a thrill...and a shout out to #10 and #11...I was long last time (so I had my turn) and watching the my pal wrestle with the predicament today...its just amazing to watch what short grass, elevation change and speed can do

Question: Topdressing the fairways - they were topdressing the fairways...our caddy told us they do it every three weeks...I was curious why that does not seem to be more common if it aids in keeping course...any thoughts on the practice?

Question:  what are your favorite holes and why?

[Tom_Doak]

Question: Topdressing the fairways - they were topdressing the fairways...our caddy told us they do it every three weeks...I was curious why that does not seem to be more common if it aids in keeping course...any thoughts on the practice?

Topdressing fairways is a great practice, but it's pretty expensive ... if you put an inch of sand per year onto 36 acres of fairways, that would be 5000 cubic yards or 7,000 tons of sand [which might cost anywhere from $10 to $50 a ton, depending on where you're at].  And that's not including the labor or machinery to spread it.  Obviously, not every club can afford that.


As for favorite holes at Shinnecock, the two that fit my eye best [and are not as often discussed] are the 12th and 16th.  I just love the look of the tee shot at the 12th, and the left side hole location on that green is something else!

[Keith OHalloran]

Is 36 acres of fairway about what Shinnecock has?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think 14 is my favorite hole. It just seems so natural from the tee.

[Mark Saltzman]

I think 14 is my favorite hole. It just seems so natural from the tee.

And the newly expanded green makes for a pretty cool new pin position!

[Tom_Doak]

Is 36 acres of fairway about what Shinnecock has?

I don't know the real number; I was going to use 35, but then I realized one inch over 36 acres is the same as three feet over one acre, which made the rest of the math pretty easy.


I would guess that 36 acres is not that far off, once the fairways were widened back out after the last U.S. Open.

[Joel_Stewart]

Folks




1.  A lot of fun...no other way to describe it...we need more golf like this...thanks to Tom and other architects that are designing great courses again today



Question:  what are your favorite holes and why?

Shinny is fun but I find it enormously hard. Its a rare quality but the more you play it, the less fun it becomes.

[Keith OHalloran]

Is 36 acres of fairway about what Shinnecock has?

I don't know the real number; I was going to use 35, but then I realized one inch over 36 acres is the same as three feet over one acre, which made the rest of the math pretty easy.


I would guess that 36 acres is not that far off, once the fairways were widened back out after the last U.S. Open.

Thanks, I had no idea what the acreage may be .

[RSantangelo]

Shinny is fun but I find it enormously hard. Its a rare quality but the more you play it, the less fun it becomes.
[/quote]


It's a funny thing, I can see what you are saying

I think there is a difference between stroke and match play....in stroke play, I got to the end and my score wasn't great even though i hit it pretty well on the last 10-11 holes....so that is frustrating....but I tend to focus on match play when I get to play these courses with a good group, maybe it's an admission that I don't expect to score terribly well...anyway, from a match play standpoint, the holes are fun to compete on...for instance, I was long on 10 last time, so I knew when My opponents went long, I just needed to avoid there fate and I should win the hole...sure enough, one failed to get it back up the hill and it came back to his feet.... and the other hit it off the front of the green...great match play stuff

But I can see how, when you play it all the time, you want to card a good score and it can grind on you

[Patrick_Mucci]

There's not a weak hole on the golf course.

Favorite 3 = 11
Favorite 4 = 9
Favorite 5 = 16

[Tim Martin]

There's not a weak hole on the golf course.

Favorite 3 = 11
Favorite 4 = 9
Favorite 5 = 16

I agree with the MIC(Moron in Chief) on these picks although for par fours I could substitute 10 or 18.

[jkinney]

The constant top dressing is done to firm up the course as much as possible before the '18 Open. Shinny is several strokes harder because of it but, IMO, also more enjoyable to play. I believe Shinny is now the best medal play tournament course anywhere. And I find it at least equal to the three (PV , CP & ANGC) ranked above it in the new Golf Mag. rankings.

[Jon Wiggett]

But is harder necessarily better Mr. J?

[jeffwarne]

The constant top dressing is done to firm up the course as much as possible before the '18 Open. Shinny is several strokes harder because of it but, IMO, also more enjoyable to play. I believe Shinny is now the best medal play tournament course anywhere. And I find it at least equal to the three (PV , CP & ANGC) ranked above it in the new Golf Mag. rankings.

Well if Shinnecock is "the best medal play tournament course in the world"
perhaps they could play the course that's there and has been there, not the absolute shite presentation they played in 2004.Though we did find out Retief was the best at the obligatory 15 footers for par that were faced by the entire field all day.
Pity really with all that work bastardizing a great course that year, there's a mini golf just down the road that could've settled it more conveniently.


I do wonder what makes a course BEST at medal play

[Keith OHalloran]

It is also too bad that they feel the need to move so many tees back. The daily player who plays the back tees will not recognize many of the holes.

[jkinney]

Sunday's debacle in '04 was the USGA's fault. They didn't water Sat. evening after a dry norther had come in, which ruined the playability. I consider it the best medal play tournament course because one uses every club multiple ways from every wind angle, and no holes are unfair. It's all in front of you. Greg Norman calls it the holy grail of golf, and Johnny Miller opines that the US Open should be alternated between Shinny & Pebble. Both Ray Floyd and Tom Lehman name it for the last round they'd play. And it is the highest ranked course on the Open rota. Having played hundreds of rounds there, I'm more convinced of its greatness each passing year.

[jeffwarne]

It is also too bad that they feel the need to move so many tees back. The daily player who plays the back tees will not recognize many of the holes.

If they(USGA) are not going to adjust the ball/superdriversCOR, moving the tees back is the closest thing to reasonable.
Daily players don't sniff the game these guys play and shouldn't recognize the holes as they play them.
Shame that a lack of bifurcation (or better yet regulation) in equipment has resulted in bifurcation of courses.


Killing the greens in 2004 merely made it impossible to distinguish good approaches from bad, as well as recoveries.
Found out who the best putter was though.


jkinney
agreed
I think it's a fantastic course

[jkinney]

The new US Open tees play to the same line as those in front of them. From the back they total 7500 yds. par 70, and are intended for the tour players. Some of the carries are in the 280 yd. range. There is nothing gimmicky about them, and they blend in beautifully with the existing architecture.. Rory McElroy played them in '14 shooting 5 under. Members of the club walk back to them to marvel at the carries and have no trouble at all recognizing the holes. These tees merely account for the increased driving distance attained by tour players since '04 and by no means change the character of the holes.

[Steve Salmen]

Is the 5th tee going to be on the opposite side of the 18th tee?

I'm doing some calculations. Most of the distance between the 2018 US Open tees and the red tees will be on the front 9. Only 14, 16 and 18 will play much longer on the back. On the front, 2,3,4,5,6,8, and 9 will each be at least 30 yds behind the reds, some like 4 and possibly 5 much longer.

[Keith OHalloran]

The new US Open tees play to the same line as those in front of them. From the back they total 7500 yds. par 70, and are intended for the tour players. Some of the carries are in the 280 yd. range. There is nothing gimmicky about them, and they blend in beautifully with the existing architecture.. Rory McElroy played them in '14 shooting 5 under. Members of the club walk back to them to marvel at the carries and have no trouble at all recognizing the holes. These tees merely account for the increased driving distance attained by tour players since '04 and by no means change the character of the holes.

JKinney,
I love Shinnecock, and just wish they would do something with the ball rather than the course, The tee on 4 is unrecognizable as is 16, I also do not love crossover on 5. Again, I love Shinnecock and would rather just see how the pros play from the regular tees.

[jkinney]

We'll agree to disagree. I find the tees on both 4 & 16 easily recognizable as compatible with the hole design. The equipment issue is entirely is another matter altogether.

[Keith OHalloran]

JKinney,
I meant more unrecognizable to those who play there a few times and watch the US Open. Again, it is one of the greatest courses in the world, and I wish we could just see it played as close to its daily brilliance as possible.

[MCirba]

I haven't been to Shinnecock in a number of years but my understanding is that the course recently underwent a significant "restoration" of fairway widths, green sizes, bunker shapes, and recovery of sandy waste areas, all fairly consistent (except for added back tees) with William Flynn's original plans.

What can anyone here share about the details?   Thanks!

[Steve Salmen]

The big changes are to 5 and 6. The addition of the sandy areas on both holes (this was done under Coore Crenshaw supervision), the removal of the "catcher's mitt" bunker on the left side of 5 green, the addition of the big bunker short and right of 6 green, adding sand on 8 between the tee and fairway, improving the fairway bunkers on 8, lots of tree removal and green expansion.  The big tree removal include right of 10 green, right of 15 fairway (remember all the trees there) to open up the vista, removal of trees on 6 fairway right (to allow view up to National), and 3 fairway left.  Also lots of work shaving off areas around greens, namely left of the 5th green.  There was some tightening of fairways last winter (12 + 13).

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKinney,


Shinnecock is one of those rare courses where you could hold a Mixed Member Guest on Tuesday and a US Open on Thursday with little in the way of alterations/preparations.