[Tom ORourke]

I am a member at a ClubCorp course in South Carolina. Our superintendent has said he values a course looking green over playability. Because of that he waters the course to death so it looks good from a distance. Meanwhile, we are getting holes where 2 to 3 yards of roll is not unusual, and chipping is difficult as we are on such wet ground that there is no margin for error. Almost all of the ground is way too soft. As soon as we get any rain we start having to go cart path only on a number of holes (we have 36) as they are already on the verge of being unplayable. We all know how that slows down play. The superintendent does not answer to our general manager but only to the ClubCorp people in Dallas so he really has no boss here. One of our members is a retired golf pro and he says that we are the only course where, in the middle of the summer, in the middle of a drought, you can hit a ball in the middle of the fairway, and have mud on the ball.  It gets tough to play it down.
Other than playability, are there long range detriments to overwatering? Our root structure is very shallow as water is always close to the surface so the roots have never grown down into the soil. I know that can be a problem if we hit water restrictions. But are there other issues that will crop up at some point? I worry that the course is so soft that it is going to crumble into sand.

[Dave McCollum]

It won’t crumble into sand.  If taken to the extreme, too much water, on a sand-based course, will kill turf:  puddles turning into mud spots, turf dying, and so on.  That’s my mantra.  More turf is killed by overwatering than visa versa, given an adequate supply and choice of how to apply it.

[David_Tepper]

Tom -

Have you or any other members contacted "the powers that be" at ClubCorp in Dallas to let them know about this situation. If so, what was their response?

DT

[Lyndell Young]

Tom at my course in SC we barely water fairways unless in extended dry periods. We typically get rain weekly.

[Steve Okula]

It won’t crumble into sand.  If taken to the extreme, too much water, on a sand-based course, will kill turf:  puddles turning into mud spots, turf dying, and so on.  That’s my mantra.  More turf is killed by overwatering than visa versa, given an adequate supply and choice of how to apply it.

Im' not advocating overwatering, but the idea that more grass is killed by water than drought is a myth.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I am a member at a ClubCorp course in South Carolina. Our superintendent has said he values a course looking green over playability. Because of that he waters the course to death so it looks good from a distance. Meanwhile, we are getting holes where 2 to 3 yards of roll is not unusual, and chipping is difficult as we are on such wet ground that there is no margin for error. Almost all of the ground is way too soft. As soon as we get any rain we start having to go cart path only on a number of holes (we have 36) as they are already on the verge of being unplayable. We all know how that slows down play. The superintendent does not answer to our general manager but only to the ClubCorp people in Dallas so he really has no boss here. One of our members is a retired golf pro and he says that we are the only course where, in the middle of the summer, in the middle of a drought, you can hit a ball in the middle of the fairway, and have mud on the ball.  It gets tough to play it down.
Other than playability, are there long range detriments to overwatering? Our root structure is very shallow as water is always close to the surface so the roots have never grown down into the soil. I know that can be a problem if we hit water restrictions. But are there other issues that will crop up at some point? I worry that the course is so soft that it is going to crumble into sand.

Are homes located around the golf courses? Real estate can sometime complicate golf course conditioning. Green grass, blue water sells homes

[Bradley Anderson]

I seriously doubt that your superintendent overwaters intentionally. My guess, and this is only a guess, is that he is managing with an accumulation of thatch and organic matter on the surface and he has little choice but to overwater. And whatever he may be telling you could be out of loyalty to his employer.

The management company contract probably doesn't include standards or criteria for adequately funding what we call "cultural programs" for mitigating the formation of thatch at the surface through dilution (topdressing) and removal (verticutting, aeration). This is the great oversight of these contracts.

Management Companies can save clubs short term money by eliminating these programs or feigning them through solid tine aeration. But eventually the thatch accumulates below the surface. Now if it isn't kept above a relatively high percentage moisture it dries out and it turns hydrophobic. The variance between wet and hydrophobic narrows when turf gets thatchy.

If your superintendent isn't given adequate funding or support to practice a sound cultural program, its a pretty good bet that he isn't given enough staff to hand water the dry spots either. And he probably doesn't have adequate funding for wetting agents to help prevent dry spots so that his variance between wet and dry is widened. So he has to over water enough to keep the thatch from drying out.

Neil Young has a great lyric "rust never sleeps". Well, neither does thatch. Thatch never sleeps and if you are not following a sound cultural program you will eventually have to overwater. It's what is below the ground that you can't see.

The General Manager needs to check the contract and see if there are standards for the cultural program. Any management company can fertilize, mow and water grass.

[Justin VanLanduit]

Along the lines of Tony's thoughts, is there reclaimed water used?  I know places where house are around the property utilize the reclaimed waste water and have to continually use it to keep retention ponds at a level to handle the daily input.  If that's the case then he may be forced to water significantly to manage that level.  Lot's of golf courses have been put in this situation.

[Ryan Coles]

I am a member at a ClubCorp course in South Carolina. Our superintendent has said he values a course looking green over playability.

Where did he say this and to whom?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Along the lines of Tony's thoughts, is there reclaimed water used?  I know places where house are around the property utilize the reclaimed waste water and have to continually use it to keep retention ponds at a level to handle the daily input.  If that's the case then he may be forced to water significantly to manage that level.  Lot's of golf courses have been put in this situation.

Funny you would mention this, JVL-The course I worked at on Hilton Head had to use over 250k gallons a day. There were times, during wet periods and very shortly after, we would have to run irrigation to satisfy the water permit contract.

[Dan Herrmann]

We once had a super that overwatered.  When he left, the roots of the grass on the greens were < 1.2 cm long.  Today, they average over 20 cm.    We figure they were close to dying due to overwatering.

[Chris Cupit]

Club Corp is no longer a privately held company--it was private equity owned for a while and I think it is now a publicly traded company.  The "powers that be" are shareholders whose only concern is a return on their investment. 


I worked for CLub Corp many years ago when the Deadmans owned it and the culture then only cared about the dues line and selling memberships--the message was that nothing else mattered.  I am guessing that is why it was so desirable to investors

[Sam Morrow]

Has this superintendent been with Club Corp for very long? The club I grew up at was Club Corp and the superintendent had the same philosophy. He actually had sprinklers on less than a week after Tropical Storm Allison, our club got 15 inches during that storm.

[David_Tepper]

"Club Corp is no longer a privately held company--it was private equity owned for a while and I think it is now a publicly traded company.  The "powers that be" are shareholders whose only concern is a return on their investment."

Chris C. -

Having worked in the investment business for over 35 years, I can say that this is all to often not the case.  Too many publicly held corporations are being run to serve the interests of senior management and too many boards of directors refuse to do anything about it.

DT 

[Buck Wolter]

"Club Corp is no longer a privately held company--it was private equity owned for a while and I think it is now a publicly traded company.  The "powers that be" are shareholders whose only concern is a return on their investment."

Chris C. -

Having worked in the investment business for over 35 years, I can say that this is all to often not the case.  Too many publicly held corporations are being run to serve the interests of senior management and too many boards of directors refuse to do anything about it.

DT

You channeling the other David Tepper? I like it

[Chris Cupit]

Maybe my notion of public companies serving the interests of the shareholders is a bit naive


The only point I was trying to make is that it is a huge company that is seeking to maxiize their profits first (I am OK with that).  I really wasn't trying to argue if that motivation will lead to customer satisfaction in the most efficient way or not.  What I do think is that what is often valued here (firm and fast conditions, roll, ground game) is often in direct contrast to what the public and even the majority of golfers seem to prefer (lush green scpaes, smooth, fast but soft greens, beatiful water features and fountains....)


Because of that and because ClubCorp wants to sell as many memberships as possible to create as big a dues line as possible, what this web sites seems to prefer and what sells country club memberships will likely be at odds.

[David_Tepper]

"You channeling the other David Tepper? I like it"

Buck W. -

The other is David A. Tepper. I am just a David Tepper. 

DT
 

[Chris Cupit]

And yes, as a small independent operator and as someone who has been inside the belly of the beast , I think ClubCorp is the "Evil Empire" and that they devour the soul of golf and golf clubs     


As to the watering issue it seems as if the look he is trying to achieve and the look that most of his customers and bosses may prefer leads to lots of water use.  He is way down on the chain of people in that organization as to who can change that though.  Even as a "Member" of ClubCorp, if you are in the minority (which I am guessing you may be), I would not hold my breath on convincing them of changing to the "brown is beautiful, "Pinehurst" look. 

[Jon Wiggett]

"You channeling the other David Tepper? I like it"

Buck W. -

The other is David A. Tepper. I am just a David Tepper. 

DT
 

 

[Tom ORourke]

Thanks for the replies. There were a few questions -
1. Are homes located around the golf courses?
Yes, but it they are 27 year old courses and new homes are not being built. Part of the issue can be the run off from homes laying higher than the course, so we get extra water from those sources.
2. Green over playability - Where did he say this and to whom?
It was in a meeting with members of the greens committee when they brought up how soft and wet the course always is. We have an older membership and as we get shorter, and he makes the course play even longer, people get upset.
3. Contacting ClubCorp in Dallas -
Not yet but coming soon. And he has been here for about 6 or 7 years. And he is responsible for 2 other ClubCorp courses in addition to our two so the people in Dallas must like him. We seem to get a lot of outside play from other ClubCorp members so we are a money maker for them so that does not seem to be an avenue that will work for us.

I am not exactly campaigning for the "brown is beautiful, "Pinehurst" look, although I am not against it. I am just wondering how the other courses in the area, like Aiken Golf Club, and Palmetto, can play firm and fast and we are stuck in the mud. Literally. I am just curious if there are long term repercussions to years of drowning a course. I had dealt with the USGA folks years ago when a course was being built up north and they preached getting the roots way down for long term success in growing grass. I feel like we are going the other way and it will come back to bite us at some point. We also had a pretty bad infestation of mole crickets this year. I know they are subterranean and wonder if the softness of the soil makes us a more likely target to them to colonize.
The superintendent also claims that the watering is automated from another area, and manual overrides can't be done. So we get rain, and no one turns off the sprinklers so we double up. I know that seems hard to believe but that is the way we are set up.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Thanks for the replies. There were a few questions -
1. Are homes located around the golf courses?
Yes, but it they are 27 year old courses and new homes are not being built. Part of the issue can be the run off from homes laying higher than the course, so we get extra water from those sources.
2. Green over playability - Where did he say this and to whom?
It was in a meeting with members of the greens committee when they brought up how soft and wet the course always is. We have an older membership and as we get shorter, and he makes the course play even longer, people get upset.
3. Contacting ClubCorp in Dallas -
Not yet but coming soon. And he has been here for about 6 or 7 years. And he is responsible for 2 other ClubCorp courses in addition to our two so the people in Dallas must like him. We seem to get a lot of outside play from other ClubCorp members so we are a money maker for them so that does not seem to be an avenue that will work for us.

I am not exactly campaigning for the "brown is beautiful, "Pinehurst" look, although I am not against it. I am just wondering how the other courses in the area, like Aiken Golf Club, and Palmetto, can play firm and fast and we are stuck in the mud. Literally. I am just curious if there are long term repercussions to years of drowning a course. I had dealt with the USGA folks years ago when a course was being built up north and they preached getting the roots way down for long term success in growing grass. I feel like we are going the other way and it will come back to bite us at some point. We also had a pretty bad infestation of mole crickets this year. I know they are subterranean and wonder if the softness of the soil makes us a more likely target to them to colonize.
The superintendent also claims that the watering is automated from another area, and manual overrides can't be done. So we get rain, and no one turns off the sprinklers so we double up. I know that seems hard to believe but that is the way we are set up.

A "rain hold" addition to the irrigation system is pennies on the dollar to have installed. It can also be linked to the Internet, therefore you can log in, access the computer and turn the system off.

[John Kavanaugh]

Our ex-super not only watered in the rain he left the greenside fans running.  Try playing with mud on your ball and in your eye.  The best defense against a poor super is patience.  Supers who over water and/or break the budget on new equipment or renovations are always looking for a better more high profile gig.  Their career is a priority, not you.  7 years you say, he'll never make 9.


We now have the finest super I have ever had the pleasure of playing under.  The fairways and greens are firm and fast and the fans only ran one day during my play all summer.  And that wasn't the day I suffered heat stroke.  It was worth the wait for the right guy to come along.  Hang in there because as I know all too well, it ain't easy being a happy golfer.  Thing is, if I didn't know how bad it could be I wouldn't appreciate how good it is now.  I at least owe the ex a nod for that.

[Daryl David]

Neil Young has a great lyric "rust never sleeps".

In 1979 the Rust-Oleum company's slogan, "Rust Never Sleeps", was adopted by Neil Young as the name for an album. (Wikipedia)


Just proves there are no original great ideas. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,
 
Your second sentence says it all.
 
"I am a member at a ClubCorp course in South Carolina.
Our superintendent has said he values a course looking green over playability."
 
A golf course is a field of play, where competitors attempt score as best they can.
 
It is not a painting, rather it's an interactive field of play where conditioning impacts the play of the competitors.
 
David Suskind once said that there are no bad TV shows, only bad audiences.
 
Perhaps the same applies to golf courses.  

[Nathan Gingrich]

I just put an new rain hold in for $50-$100 and whether you water your home lawn or you are a superintendent you should never not have one. It sounds to me like you are paying for what you get. If this guy is managing 36 holes at your property and another 36 somewhere else the level of attention to detail he can provide your club is most likely not very high. Having firm and fast conditions is about more than deciding not to water its about the intense labor of constantly adjusting the 1,000+ irrigation heads on an 18 hole course, daily scouting, and handwatering. I would seriously doubt that the management structure exists at these locations to support such conditions.   

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