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Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2015, 04:29:46 PM »
Mike,


At least in Atlanta (as dysfunctial a market as there is  ;D ), the last decade has seen crazy lengths to which clubs go to "compete" or differentiate themselves from one another and tees are just another example of where members expect more.  It kind of makes sense in that the tee is the first impression you get when starting a hole.


Members expect flawless turf, laser level ground and a tight surface to rest their clubhead on.  I actually have people discuss tees that are too "fluffy" are that won't allow their drivers to rest flushly on the ground! >:(


It is kind of nuts and when I think about what I grew up on and played (and which I thought was really nice) would be viewed with disdain today. 


People do notice tees nowadays!! 


Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2015, 04:56:00 PM »
Can we make the case that bigger does not always mean more expensive?


If large, free form tees are built and mowed at fairway height are they not cheaper to maintain than a set of 6, rectangular tees with square edges that are walk mowed every other day?

That's my point. Big, fairway height, must be able to be mowed with fairway mower, top dress by dumping mix with truck and spread/level with machine. Adds more variety to hole.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2015, 06:03:09 PM »
I have had a few clients dictate big tees combined over several smaller ones to reduce the number of times they need to pick up the basket and move. I guess it saves a bit of time, and a lot of frustration for some mowers. 

In the old days, many tees actually had a small stair step mowed as tee to connect them.  They seemed to have gone out of style, as mix, higher maintenance, etc. became more common. The thought was, why build a tee to a standard when you can't use it that way?  Maybe with lesser maintenance, that little artistic flare makes a bit more sense.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2015, 06:13:14 PM »
Good thread Mike.  To me it started in the 1940's with possibly Peachtree and the modern tees by RTJ.  Long elevated tees that became increasingly hard to maintain. 


How much does it cost to maintain this tee?



jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2015, 07:25:45 PM »
If a tee box is constructed in a manner similar to a USGA green the land & preparation costs can be capitalized and depreciated.

You don't get to do that if you build a 'push-up' tee box.


I'm not sure that's right.
You're saying if I spend $2000 on building a tee I can't capitalize it, but that if I overbuild USGA style and spend $12000 on the same tee I can?
Are the pushup police gonna check?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2015, 08:10:44 PM »
I generally prefer smaller tees because it makes it easier to create different angles.  Plus, I really hate the concept of large, long tees which are stepped.  But there are times when a large tee makes a lot of sense.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2015, 09:53:03 PM »
Jeff,
The club where I play in Athens mows at 3/8 inch with walk mowers including practice tee.  They Primo and verticut constantly.  It provides a really good surface and as Chris Cupit says...members have come to expect it.  BUT myself, I don't think it started with members.  I think it is a product of good young supts seeing it as a way to gain on the competition and at the same time aid in moving on to the next job.  Supts don't take that wrong...it' only natural. 

When it comes to TD mentioning the 2 or 3 guys that spec the top of the line , I think he is spot on.  While I may not be on the national level of a TD or CC I can assure you that those of us who build our own product are constantly slammed by the big contractors.  Why? Because they know they will get no work from us and they know they can't control our jobs.  I have seen too many projects where the signature contractor is awarded the project because the signature architect said to the owner that you had to choose one of these "three".  The signatures like the set up because all they have to do is "call-in" 95% of the project ot eh contractor.  "Hey Elwood, build green from hole three at Spanker Heights on hole seven at Slapdick Valley.  I'll check it in a week or two but something similar should work."    Meanwhile contractor is on the site each day with the green chair or young VP of marketing watching in awe and "jocksniffing the sig".  So it is an easy sale for contractor or sig archie to explain how much better things will be with USGA spec tees etc.  It's why cost are out of control. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2015, 10:22:54 PM »
Jeff,
The club where I play in Athens mows at 3/8 inch with walk mowers including practice tee.  They Primo and verticut constantly.  It provides a really good surface and as Chris Cupit says...members have come to expect it.  BUT myself, I don't think it started with members.  I think it is a product of good young supts seeing it as a way to gain on the competition and at the same time aid in moving on to the next job.  Supts don't take that wrong...it' only natural. 

When it comes to TD mentioning the 2 or 3 guys that spec the top of the line , I think he is spot on.  While I may not be on the national level of a TD or CC I can assure you that those of us who build our own product are constantly slammed by the big contractors.  Why? Because they know they will get no work from us and they know they can't control our jobs.  I have seen too many projects where the signature contractor is awarded the project because the signature architect said to the owner that you had to choose one of these "three".  The signatures like the set up because all they have to do is "call-in" 95% of the project ot eh contractor.  "Hey Elwood, build green from hole three at Spanker Heights on hole seven at Slapdick Valley.  I'll check it in a week or two but something similar should work."    Meanwhile contractor is on the site each day with the green chair or young VP of marketing watching in awe and "jocksniffing the sig".  So it is an easy sale for contractor or sig archie to explain how much better things will be with USGA spec tees etc.  It's why cost are out of control.


I can agree that the push may have come from competition among supers to separate themselves.   :)   Some "not so healthy" competition I guess.  At least for many operators and one might argue, long term for all clubs that feel the need to keep up with the Jones'

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2015, 10:36:05 PM »
A squared off elevated tee is harder to maintain because it is in its own little environment - which may require or work "best" with site specific drainage and irrigation.
This often comes from design requirements or recommendations.
Versus building freeform tees at natural grade to tie into their surroundings which requires general/similar/fairway maintenance, drainage and irrigation.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2015, 10:37:41 PM »
Jeff,
The club where I play in Athens mows at 3/8 inch with walk mowers including practice tee.  They Primo and verticut constantly.  It provides a really good surface and as Chris Cupit says...members have come to expect it.  BUT myself, I don't think it started with members.  I think it is a product of good young supts seeing it as a way to gain on the competition and at the same time aid in moving on to the next job.  Supts don't take that wrong...it' only natural. 

When it comes to TD mentioning the 2 or 3 guys that spec the top of the line , I think he is spot on.  While I may not be on the national level of a TD or CC I can assure you that those of us who build our own product are constantly slammed by the big contractors.  Why? Because they know they will get no work from us and they know they can't control our jobs.  I have seen too many projects where the signature contractor is awarded the project because the signature architect said to the owner that you had to choose one of these "three".  The signatures like the set up because all they have to do is "call-in" 95% of the project ot eh contractor.  "Hey Elwood, build green from hole three at Spanker Heights on hole seven at Slapdick Valley.  I'll check it in a week or two but something similar should work."    Meanwhile contractor is on the site each day with the green chair or young VP of marketing watching in awe and "jocksniffing the sig".  So it is an easy sale for contractor or sig archie to explain how much better things will be with USGA spec tees etc.  It's why cost are out of control.


I can agree that the push may have come from competition among supers to separate themselves.   :)   Some "not so healthy" competition I guess.  At least for many operators and one might argue, long term for all clubs that feel the need to keep up with the Jones'

That's the good thing about having a good supt that is old enough to not be wanting to climb the ladder....stops much of the BS...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2015, 11:44:53 PM »
Tees are very important. They are where it all starts fresh and a new ball on a tee with a nice driver is part of the escape from the world. The tee marker can even look cool if it is simple. None of this makes sense, but neither does not wearing  # 13.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2015, 02:37:20 AM »
Mike Young...I agree about certain sigs, and especially their construction minions. Unfortunately we are tilting windmills with many of today's client/player profiles who grew up consuming fluff instead of fodder. If only we live so long to see a change my friend...
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 05:44:46 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2015, 03:03:55 AM »
...btw I'm tempted to start a thread along similar lines to expose certain relationships that I feel harm the Game...put it out in the open. Not there yet...still have something to lose...very little actually :)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 05:48:12 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2015, 07:56:24 AM »
...btw I'm tempted to start a thread along similar lines to expose certain relationships that I feel harm the Game...put it out in the open. Not there yet...still have something to lose...very little actually :)

one day :) :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2015, 10:28:23 AM »
A squared off elevated tee is harder to maintain because it is in its own little environment - which may require or work "best" with site specific drainage and irrigation.
This often comes from design requirements or recommendations.
Versus building freeform tees at natural grade to tie into their surroundings which requires general/similar/fairway maintenance, drainage and irrigation.


One thing I enjoy at Wolf Point is teeing off the back of the green toward the next green.   ;D

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2015, 12:36:16 PM »
It seems like all non par 3 tees can be made small as people usually peg it up and aren't taking divots....and the grass can be kept longer on these tees as well.
 

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2015, 04:14:19 PM »

If a tee box is constructed in a manner similar to a USGA green the land & preparation costs can be capitalized and depreciated.

You don't get to do that if you build a 'push-up' tee box.

I'm not sure that's right.
You're saying if I spend $2000 on building a tee I can't capitalize it, but that if I overbuild USGA style and spend $12000 on the same tee I can?
Are the pushup police gonna check?

It seems that it is true, and there are push-up police.  ;D

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Audit-Procedures-for-Golf-Course-Land-Improvements-%E2%88%92-Change-In-Accounting-Method
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2015, 06:37:12 PM »
It seems like all non par 3 tees can be made small as people usually peg it up and aren't taking divots....and the grass can be kept longer on these tees as well.


Actually, the wear of just four guys walking up and on a tee is quite hard on the tee.  Small tees are never a good idea--I've paid the price of thinking a small back tee will be fine since only 5-10% of my golfers would ever use it  :P


I've come to realize it's almost impossible to ahve a tee too big and the cost of fixing that mistake is way more than the cst of a few more passes every few days with a mower!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2015, 06:47:40 PM »
It seems like all non par 3 tees can be made small as people usually peg it up and aren't taking divots....and the grass can be kept longer on these tees as well.


Actually, the wear of just four guys walking up and on a tee is quite hard on the tee.  Small tees are never a good idea--I've paid the price of thinking a small back tee will be fine since only 5-10% of my golfers would ever use it  :P


I've come to realize it's almost impossible to ahve a tee too big and the cost of fixing that mistake is way more than the cst of a few more passes every few days with a mower!

Chris,
 
Thanks for adding that insight, it makes perfect sense. 
 
One of the things I notice on the courses I play regularly is that they never seem to utilize the entire teeing ground.  For example, say you have a teeing area that is 10 yards long and 5 yards wide.  It seems like the middle area of the tee is used virtually all the time and the outlying area areas near the edges is never utilized.  I understand why you wouldn't want to force a player to stand in the rough, but it seems like the entire area could be used to cut down on wear and tear..

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2015, 06:09:52 AM »
The question on the size is a mix of amount of use and just how perfect the tee is expected to be. In the end it all comes down to cost and value for money.

Jon

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2015, 08:13:17 AM »
It seems like all non par 3 tees can be made small as people usually peg it up and aren't taking divots....and the grass can be kept longer on these tees as well.


Actually, the wear of just four guys walking up and on a tee is quite hard on the tee.  Small tees are never a good idea--I've paid the price of thinking a small back tee will be fine since only 5-10% of my golfers would ever use it  :P


I've come to realize it's almost impossible to ahve a tee too big and the cost of fixing that mistake is way more than the cst of a few more passes every few days with a mower!

Kalen,

In reality, that 15 foot swath of turf between tee markers takes damage from both foot traffic and divots, with divots being the major factor.  Superintendents tell me it takes 14-21 days for the divots to recover so on any tee, it makes sense to have at least that many rotations, maybe 14 on long holes, and 21 (and in reality, maybe 28) on par threes.  Of course, on most back tees, there is so little play you probably don't even have to move the markers......

Chris,

As per above, I had a few supers complain that all my "few extra passes" added up to a few hours of overtime each day to complete mowing. Hence, I have concluded that there is some upward practical limit......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2015, 03:26:43 PM »
It seems like all non par 3 tees can be made small as people usually peg it up and aren't taking divots....and the grass can be kept longer on these tees as well.


Actually, the wear of just four guys walking up and on a tee is quite hard on the tee.  Small tees are never a good idea--I've paid the price of thinking a small back tee will be fine since only 5-10% of my golfers would ever use it  :P


I've come to realize it's almost impossible to ahve a tee too big and the cost of fixing that mistake is way more than the cst of a few more passes every few days with a mower!

I'm not remotely qualified to give a Superintendent any substantive advice but I would like to make an observation about this. I wonder whether the health/lack thereof of a small tee box depends more on the presence of non-tee-box turf where people usually stand. Which is to say, if it's a small back tee box and it's natural to stand within the short-grass confines, it makes perfect sense that that tee box will get chewed up quickly.

I think the fact that the vast majority of tee boxes are elevated a few inches to a couple feet above their surroundings contributes to this phenomenon/problem. Consciously and subconsciously, it doesn't make spatial sense to be standing below your groupmates while they're teeing off.

Which brings me to a course whose tee boxes are simultaneously some of the narrowest/smallest I've seen anywhere and the best: Secession GC in SC. One of the things that sticks out a lot about the course is how many of the tee boxes are flush with the surroundings - i.e. not elevated at all. So, when someone else is teeing off, you're often standing in rough, but at the same elevation as the tee box. Not only is this cleaner from an earthworks standpoint, it strikes me as easier to maintain, because the short grass gets less foot traffic because it's so small.

Otherwise, maybe architects should try and build "batter's box" areas into tee pads.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2015, 03:51:31 PM »
Tim,

It can be a factor.  Any tee where the path is only a few feet from the edge usually suffers this problem, as do many smaller back tees.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The modern tee...why?
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2015, 05:08:20 PM »
Tim,

many of my tees are at grade level and all are what would be considered small 10ft x 30ft being typical. The rule at my place is you can peg it up any where on the tee which works well enough. Admittedly, we do not get a huge amount of traffic (3000 to 3500 over 5 month main season) the tees hold up well. Of the tees that are built up I will be doing a major (for me) re-levelling work as many are now quite uneven. This is not the case with the grade level tees. I do not consider them to be push up tees but rather just mown.

Jon

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