Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?

[Peter Pallotta]

A ten is a ten is a ten . 

Not many or any exist , so it has to be a once in a lifetime experience.

Okay, fair enough -- but then what happens after a guy plays Pine Valley more than 100 times?

[MCirba]

[quote author=PPallotta link=topic=61790.msg1467525#msg1467525 date=1442587449

Okay, fair enough -- but then what happens after a guy plays Pine Valley more than 100 times?




He dies happily.

[Peter Pallotta]

Guy walks into a doctor's office, says, "Doc, you got to help me: playing Pine Valley is a once in a lifetime experience, and I've just played it. What should I do?". Doc says, "Hmm - maybe take two aspirins and hook me up with your member?"

[MCirba]

I know an older gentleman who had played all of the Top 100 courses in the country EXCEPT for Augusta National.   One summer he ended up playing with a member who advised him that come next season he was invited to come play.   

Unfortunately, the member died a few weeks later.   

[Joe Bausch]

Guy walks into a doctor's office, says, "Doc, you got to help me: playing Pine Valley is a once in a lifetime experience, and I've just played it. What should I do?". Doc says, "Hmm - maybe take two aspirins and hook me up with your member?"

Thank you.  Thank you.  I'll be here all week.


P2


 

[George Pazin]

How cool would it be if someone actually responded to the thread with comments about Friar's Head?


Jon Cavalier did, John Kirk did, Bill McBride managed to.


There might actually be some discussion of the course, as opposed to the criteria Tom had in mind or some other such highly important matter...

[Phil McDade]

How cool would it be if someone actually responded to the thread with comments about Friar's Head?


Jon Cavalier did, John Kirk did, Bill McBride managed to.


There might actually be some discussion of the course, as opposed to the criteria Tom had in mind or some other such highly important matter...

True, but my understanding is that Friar's Head isn't the easiest course to access, nor are the courses that Doak rated as 9s and 10s -- the relevant courses, it seems, in which to further the debate on this.


I've been roundly criticized at times on this forum for making judgements about courses that, although depicted on this discussion board with extensive pictures, I have not played. It seems that much harder to add anything to this discussion -- and I'm guessing others might feel the same way -- with an initial one-sentence post that wonders why such-and-such isn't a 10....

[George Pazin]

Phil, I know your reflex is to disagree with me, but judging by the comments, there are plenty of people who posted who have actually played the course.


Screw the nitpicking of the wording, discuss the course.

[Phil McDade]

Well, the two most interesting observations on this thread have been by Messrs. Rafkin and Saltzman, and I can't tell whether either one has played the course.

[Keith OHalloran]

I have been lucky enough to play Friars Head a few times and it is spectacular. Not sure how I would score it on Tom's scale, but I would drop everything at another invite, and I would play it at the expense of several other east end courses. Those things make it a 10 to me.

[Jeff Evagues]

I have played FH and it is top notch but if had a choice for one round between the two  I would pick Sebonack.

[Keith OHalloran]

I have played FH and it is top notch but if had a choice for one round between the two  I would pick Sebonack.

Any specific reason?

[Bill McKinley]

Anybody else find the scorecard annoying and the clubhouse not fitting in? 

I'm all for minimalism and neat little features like that but to me having no info other than par on the card took away from the anticipation of "what's next" and was trying too hard to be different. 

And the clubhouse...you have this awesome place that is all about it's private understated nature and they built a giant over the top structure that looks like it should be at Trump place.

To answer the original question of the thread, to me, those are all factors in what makes a golf experience a 10 or not.  That and I thought that 12 was a poor hole and the tee shot at 18 needs to be changed somehow.

Loved the course, but not a 10 for this golfer.

[Mac Plumart]

Friars Head is an elite course. No question.

Whether it is a 9 or a 10 or whatever is personal taste. Keith answer really gets to the reason we apply ratings...to judge quality and worthiness of playing there. Keith had played it a bunch, but would still drop everything to play it again. That's a sign of a quality course and a great experience.

I've been lucky enough to play there once. I thought it was truly great.  The only Coore and Crenshaw That is "better" in my book is Sand Hills, but, to be fair, I am gaga over Mullen, NE. And simply being there is magical to me.

Like Keith, if I was invited to play Friars Head again, and only Friars Head, I'd immediately make plans to fly in from ATL.

I don't do Doak Scale ratings, but that should give you a good idea of how highly I regard the course.

[Tim_Weiman]

What stands out about this thread is how poorly the case is made for Friars Head being a great course.


That is not to say it isn't a great course. Just saying the case hasn't been made here.


Based on the posts in this thread, it seems like we are just giving Friars Head the benefit of the doubt because someone we like - Bill Coore - did the course.


Makes me wonder if posts would be different if some no name - maybe a guy named George Crump - did the course.


I shouldn't be surprised. Golf architecture writing isn't easy.

[Mac Plumart]

You don't need to make a case or defend Friars Head as being great.  Because it is. Plain and simple.

[Tim_Weiman]

You don't need to make a case or defend Friars Head as being great.  Because it is. Plain and simple.

Mac:

Notice I didn't say FH isn't a great course. I just said nobody made the case in this thread.

A bunch of golf architecture junkies and nobody has made the case.

Interesting.

[Michael Whitaker]

I've thought a lot about Friars Head and how it compares to Sand Hills... just the course, not the clubhouse... which is too opulent for my taste at Friars Head.

I'd love to see you guys do a matchplay comparison between the two. Both courses are magnificent and I'm not sure which one would win. Of all the C&C courses I've played Sand Hills and Friars Head are the two that have made the most impact on me.

If Sand Hills is a 10 Friars Head can't be far behind, if at all.

[Keith OHalloran]

Tim,
I am far from a writer or golf critic, but here are my thoughts. First, somehow driving through the gates seems to take you to a different place. I just feel like I am off LI when I play there and totally secluded, which I like. I also like the variety of holes, and terrain.  They have a par 4 where you can try and drive it and make double, and a par 4 where I can  not make it in 2 but make par. The course features a wide array of greens as well, some undulated, some with tilt, all with interest. I can only judge a routing by how walkable the course is, and Friars is a great walk. Cresting the hill to see the clubhouse is amazing, and walking along the deck as the day winds down can not be beat.
Sorry that I am not the type of guy that will be invited to contribute to TCG, but those are my personal thoughts on it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You don't need to make a case or defend Friars Head as being great.  Because it is. Plain and simple.

Mac:

Notice I didn't say FH isn't a great course. I just said nobody made the case in this thread.

A bunch of golf architecture junkies and nobody has made the case.

Interesting.

Tim

Friars Head makes the case for itself, starting with the routing.

The course transitions from the dunes to the flats to the dunes to flats and finally back to the dunes in wonderful fashion.

There's not a weak hole on the golf course.

The par 5's, perhaps the hardest holes to design, are outstanding.

The par 3's are good with # 10 being an outstanding par 3.

The par 4's are diverse and very strong.

As I stated, the terrain, routing and individual holes are outstanding.

Did I mention the putting surfaces ?

They are outstanding with more than ample contour, shape and slope.

Friars Head passes my ultimate test, in that I want to go straight to the first tee as I walk off the 18th green.

[David Davis]

I was fortunate enough to play Friar's Head in October last year on a perfect day. For me it's not a 10 or a 9 but don't get me wrong I still love it, it's just not one of my favorites. I will admit to not remembering the course in great detail, usually I'm pretty good with that (for example, Crystal Downs I remember every hole like it was yesterday). However, a lot of the holes there (back to FH) which I found very good were not memorable for me. I also felt that there were quite a few similar tees shots elevated tee down to the fairway. The green complexes were excellent and I enjoy the look and feel of the links like courses. However, it also slightly bothers me when a course looks like a links course but perhaps lacks the firm and fast playing conditions of a links. FH was in perfect shape in October but quite lush in my recollection. Some love that of course but I tend to lean away from that. I personally give it an 8. Which from the sounds of it will be asking for abuse here. Although there are not that many 8's out there. I like both Sand Hills and Bandon Trails better even though Bandon Trails is also an 8 for me. Sand Hills a 9.


I went back 3 days later to have dinner at Friar's Head. I was quite impressed with that but found it a shame that we were only 3 people with an entire waiting staff serving us. Sure it's a bit surreal to have the entire place for yourself and super exclusive, it was a wonderful evening, a 9 out of 10 ;-). Food was fantastic, pre dinner drinks by the fire, special place. It would of been a 10 experience had the place been a little livelier.

[Sam Morrow]

Who cares if a course is a 9 or 10? Everyones fascination with The Doak Scale is creepy. Everyone says Friars Head is awesome, I've never played it but I'd love to see what makes everyone so happy.

[Mac Plumart]

You will get no abuse from me, David. You gave your opinion after playing the course and gave reasons. The ratings are all based on personal taste and you said what you didn't like about the course. But did give it an 8, which is a darn high rating.

Discussions boards are about discussion.

[Joel_Stewart]

You don't need to make a case or defend Friars Head as being great.  Because it is. Plain and simple.

Mac:

Notice I didn't say FH isn't a great course. I just said nobody made the case in this thread.

A bunch of golf architecture junkies and nobody has made the case.

Interesting.

Tim

Friars Head makes the case for itself, starting with the routing.


Friars Head passes my ultimate test, in that I want to go straight to the first tee as I walk off the 18th green.

Pat:


If you invited to the Hamptons to play 1 round of golf, which do you choose?


I've played FH 3 times and its great and I look forward to going back but if I get to select one course, it's going to be NGLA.

[Mac Plumart]

Joel,

That's a tough standard. In the neighborhood, you've got some of the very best courses in the entire world.

NGLA would be my pick too...but I'm sure Shinnecock would get votes too. And you've got Maidstone, Sebonack, and quite a few other gems.