Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?

[Phil McDade]

Phil,

Given the property lines and the early discovery of the Redan, Alps, Road, Eden and Sahara holes, along with the two clubhouse locations, how was NGLA's routing not self evident ?

Do you, and others, think, that upon playing a course you can determine the quality of a routing ?

Patrick: I can't comment on NGLA, having not played it, and it's been a while since I read CBM's book, so I can't recall details on his writings about it.


I do think one can sense the quality of routing having played and seen a course. In an interesting way, to me, I think very good routings stand out as obviously good routings right away; on the other hand, it takes repeated plays and visits to a course to see how a routing might not be optimal.


To use an example close to home: Milwaukee CC stood out as a very good routing the first time I saw it. Repeated visits to Erin Hills confirm, for me, its routing at times is askew.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

I think I see part of the problem, and it's one of context.

My series of replies, especially # 's 2, 44, 56 and 63 have to be viewed in terms of continuity rather than isolation.

Let me try to string them together for you.

I stated the following:

# 2 

Great course, great practice facility, great par 3 course, great clubhouse.
 
Sounds like a 10 to me.

# 44

Friars Head makes the case for itself, starting with the routing.

The course transitions from the dunes to the flats to the dunes to flats and finally back to the dunes in wonderful fashion.

As I stated, the terrain, routing and individual holes are outstanding.

# 56

Some things, architecturally, are self evident.

Routings being one of them.

The routing of Friars Head, over that terrain is a 10 in itself.

Now, you have to evaluate the individual holes within the context of the terrain and routing.

# 63

You may not be qualified to opine on the quality of the routing, but I am.

The quality of the routing over the terrain at Friars Head is self evident, but then again, how would you know otherwise, as you've never set foot on the property. 

So for you, any pronouncement about the quality of the routing would be foolish.

Whereas, having visited the project during and after construction, with and without Ken Bakst, and having played it numerous times, I'm more than qualified to assess the quality of the routing.

[/

My statement regarding routing/s was a statement made in the context of an existing course.

Certainly the CC of York provides proof to the contrary on undeveloped land.

When you play a golf course, and you are aware of the property lines, you can assess, when you walk off the 18th green, the quality of the routing.
It's self evident.

The quality of the routing is self evident at Friars Head, NGLA, Seminole, Pebble Beach, CPC and a myriad of others.
You also know when a routing is lacking, irrespective of the reasons as to why it's lacking (permitting, owner, money, other).

Hope that helps.color]

[Steve Salmen]

After several hours of thinking about it (not constantly), I asked myself the same question, Why is this not a 10?


I tried really hard to find something wrong with the golf course.  I thought maybe the fairways of 2,3, 13 were flattish and maybe hole 12 sticks out oddly, but must call BS on myself for looking so hard.  I'm not that good an evaluator to be so nit picky.


The course was firm, fast, fair, and fun.  It's pretty much as good as any course I've ever played.

[Tim_Weiman]

After several hours of thinking about it (not constantly), I asked myself the same question, Why is this not a 10?


I tried really hard to find something wrong with the golf course.  I thought maybe the fairways of 2,3, 13 were flattish and maybe hole 12 sticks out oddly, but must call BS on myself for looking so hard.  I'm not that good an evaluator to be so nit picky.


The course was firm, fast, fair, and fun.  It's pretty much as good as any course I've ever played.

Steve,


Thanks for bringing this thread forward. It’s almost ten years old and not one I remember despite making numerous posts in it.


Enjoyed seeing Tommy and Pat Mucci. Thanks again.


Tim

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Having been fortunate to play there several times over the years, it is in my top 10 favorite courses to play.  The course has great strategic value. It can be set up fairly easy and really difficult simply by various pin positions. The greens are wonderfully undulating.  My best success began with great positional driving, since the caddies give you the pin positions on the tee, and suggest were the best angle of attack is located; and I oftentimes found those areas.  Best of all, the recovery shots are challenging, but very possible, and sometimes involve playing away from the target and working the ball across green slopes back to the hole.  Of course, I am biased about the 8th being the best par 5 anywhere, since I have made an albatross with a 250 yard driver off the deck into a two club wind, plus an interesting eagle from the sand right of the green, that I called with 50 feet left for it to go in!