Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side

[Andy Johnson]

I have taken my drone out to the last two days, yesterday was a little cold so I didn't get much fly time and unfortunately today the sky wasn't as clear as yesterday. Here's a couple shots I thought everyone would enjoy to get an idea of the property and where the two courses will be connected.


Here is the southeast corner of the South Shore property






Here's a look at the northern portion of the South Shore property & Clubhouse





Here's where the two properties will connect likely via a tunnel, the north corner of South Shore and the Southeast corner of Jackson Park







Project has its hurdles but the potential of this place is off the charts.

[Howard Riefs]

The latest on this course development...


http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/golf-course-merger-requires-another-road-closing-in-jackson-park/amp/

[Howard Riefs]

Geoff Shackelford called out this article that ran in the NY Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/05/us/golf-chicago-south-side-tiger-woods.html

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/5/8/ny-times-chicagos-south-side-golf-courses-in-line-for-a-tige.html

[Mark Provenzano]

I do like the fact that they are talking about building a short course as well as making the main course not overly difficult for the average golfer.  The main hurdle will be getting people to actually risk their safety driving to and from the course.

Really? Do you live in the city or are you just some "708er", or worse, a "630er" who ventures into the city to see a game or go to some tourist trap at Navy Pier with your nephews and nieces? Or, you live downstate and went to U of I and have never left the area.


Some other destinations within a half mile of this proposed project: University of Chicago, Museum of Science and Industry, Jackson Park Yacht Club, President Obama's house, Chicago Lab School, Obama Library, etc.


Harborside is a success and that is MUCH farther away.
This course is easily accessible just off Lake Shore Drive.

Is Harborside a success? Hasn't seemed all that busy when I've been there.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20170404/BLOGS04/170409966/south-side-golf-course-set-for-1-7-million-renovation

[Tim_Cronin]

Harborside International is owned by the Illinois International Port District (they own the port in Lake Calumet, or what's left of the lake and the landfill), where the course is. The IIPD, which doesn't collect taxes, brings in enough revenue from port activities to cover any loss. A quick look at a recent budget doesn't even show Harborside by name as a line item.

[Jim Nugent]

According to the article Howard linked, they need to shut down two heavily-used roads to create the golf course.  One of the underpasses to handle the overflow will cost at least $11 million.  No estimate on the other, but seems reasonable to put it at least 7 figures, maybe 8.  On top of which, they need to do significant repairs to the shoreline.  All this on the public, not private, dime. 

So even if they hold to the $30 million total cost and raise 80% from private sources (they aren't even close to $5 million so far), the public will have to pay at least $16 million + the second underpass + shoreline reinforcements.  Sounds like at least $30 million of public money and maybe more.   

[Tim_Cronin]

The routing has surfaced in advance of a public meeting tonight at the South Shore Cultural Center.


If I was smart enough to post pictures here, I'd do so. But I have it and a story about it at my www.illinoisgolfer.net website, so feel free to look at it there, then come back here and comment on it.


There are four holes (11 green through 14) on the lakefront. The last four holes are along the perimeter of the property with OB left for the most part. Two roads are closed in this plan.

[Terry Lavin]

The infrastructure costs might doom this project but I wouldn't bet against Mike Keiser and the small group of generous donors who are trying to get it done.

[Steve Lang]

   Here you go Tim...

[Tim_Cronin]

Steve, thanks.


Nos. 10-11-12-13-14 wrap around South Shore in the lower right. 12-13-14 along the lakefront. That's your $30 million (plus!) view. Don't see the worth to the neighborhood, given there are two golf courses right there now.


For a caddie program? Start (or, more properly, restart) one (and one is being started right now).


For a harder golf course? Geez, Harborside is 15 minutes away and you can see downtown from there, too.


To improve the golf? Throw a couple of million into what's there now (as with the current bunker upgrading at Robert Black on the old Edgewater site) and people can have more fun for less money.


This is an answer to a non-problem. I'm not even sure at first look that this redo is all that good. Plus, two busy roads are closed.

[PCCraig]

If the generous donors really wanted to improve the golf courses and get more people from the neighborhood into the game and into caddying, they should hire the guys who renovated Winter Park in Florida to renovate both golf courses. Those guys "get it", they will build a terrific and fun golf course(s), all while keeping the green fees reasonable.


Frankly I would of assumed Mike Kaiser would know better than all of this...building an expensive golf course designed to host a "championship" designed by Tiger Woods sounds like a recipe for disaster at this point.

[Wade Whitehead]

I didn't see this in the thread (and sorry if I missed it), but how does the project work with Tiger's recent troubles?

It would seem that the marketing necessary for success just doesn't work any more.

WW

[Tim_Cronin]

I don't think Woods' involvement or lack thereof (Beau Willing of Woods' firm did the routing and, I presume, most of the detail work, with Woods contributing the rest) will have much to do with the fund-raising. People who write big checks are smart enough not to write them on the strength of a handshake or schmooze session.


This will happen or not happen on the cost of the infrastructure, presuming enough of the community supports it.

[Scott Weersing]

The problem: Old courses with narrow fairways and very small greens do not promote the game. New golfers need wide fairways and large greens to feel successful. Would you rather have 18 holes of wide golf or 27 holes of narrow golf?


Sure you can build a course with wide fairways and big greens for a lot cheaper than 30 million dollars. For example, Common Ground.


But remember, this is Chicago.


If you took the 30 million dollars you could build 3 courses out in the 'burbs, if you could find the land.


Courses need to be close to the people.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Golfers playing Jackson currently have to cross Jeffrey Ave. on their own now, couldn't that underpass be eliminated?  I'd put a light/crosswalk in in the middle of that section of Jeffrey and just call it good.  As for the South Shore connecting tunnel that sounds like a hot mess.  Maybe a drone could just pick each golfer up and deliver them across to the South Shore side of the property. 


In general, this project would be awesome if it happened, but it just seems too rooted in fantasy given all that needs to happen.  But as Daniel Burnham famously said:


``Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men`s blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will never die, but long after we are gone will be a living thing, asserting itself with ever- growing insistency. Remember that our sons and grandsons are going to do things that would stagger us. Let your watchword be order and your beacon beauty.``

[corey miller]

Have they tried to get President Obama involved? He loves the game, is a very competent player and probably learned the game while in Chicago. 

With all the great clubs in the area, with very strong caddie programs, I have a hard time seeing how that element would work. 

[Paul OConnor]

New Sun-Times Editorial Board chimes in...

http://chicago.suntimes.com/opinion/editorial-south-side-golf-course-plan-full-of-holes/

[corey miller]

If the new course, with a higher green fee could generate enough revenue to improve the quality of experience (while maintaining fees) at the other district courses would that be such a problem? Perhaps maintain fees for locals one day a week?

Has President voiced his opinion? the article hints it would be helpful to his library but I am sure he is not that well versed at this point in all the issues? Regardless, the proponents, for this plan to be accepted, need to get the President on board. 

[Jim Nugent]

 One way to resolve some of the issues:  set up the course as a kind of private country club for locals, i.e. the golfers who now play the two courses.  They get unlimited play at their current green fees, around $20 to $30 a round as I understand it.  Outside play allowed, at $200 a round, but only in two ways:

1. As guests of 'members';
2. Through a daily lottery that permits some small, fixed number of golfers per day.

Tiger Woods is honorary head pro.  He comes to the course twice a year, for a few days each time, to conduct clinics, meet with the community, etc. 

To finance construction, including infrastructure changes: Obama and Keiser contribute $8 million each, either personally or through foundations.  Their example should set the ball rolling, and motivate other wealthy people and institutions to contribute. 

To finance running costs after the course is built:  the PGA Tour commits to hold an annual tour event at the course.  Maybe the Western Open or even the Tour Championship.  That should raise several million dollars a year, enough to cover operating costs.  A pro-am with members might be an interesting part of the event. 

Course includes First Tee program, caddies and Evans Scholarships.  Maybe Tiger and/or the PGA Tour can induce other touring pros to make appearances from time to time, holding clinics, meeting members, playing for-fun matches with/against them. 

Course name: Obama Memorial.  Obama agrees to maintain some involvement with the course and its members: like Tiger, this comes to a few days a year.

Seems to me something like this truly benefits local golfers and their community, and may require little or no public funding.     

 

[corey miller]

Jim

Not familiar with the area but from what I have been reading it does not seem that the "members" in your plan would have many "guests" at $200 a round.  It would seem a more generous outside policy for those willing to pay would need to be created. 

Is there currently a membership program at the two courses?  Again, seems like we need to get President Obama on board working with the local area private clubs, perhaps they could donate "maintenance" equipment and limited manpower? 

As for access, the only other thing that would seem to make sense is have the larger greens fee on a "PGA COURSE" for visitors and non-Chicago people (even tie in with visiting the museum which will be a popular draw) and allow limited play for locals perhaps once a week? 

With that perhaps the local private clubs could open up for one day of play a week at reduced fees for the locals who have given up their course for the public good.  Perhaps maintain fee at the well reduced rate $20? The clubs could make money on food and beverage and perhaps cart revenue. 

How many local privates withing a ten mile?  more than a few and the above may work.

[Terry Lavin]

Neighborhood and "friends of the parks" opposition doesn't help, but I'm not going negative yet.

[Jud_T]

Seems like a classic gentrification debate to me.  While this is some prime lakefront real estate and could, with the President's library, extend the museum campus, and effectively Hyde Park and the University of Chicago beachhead economically, I really don't see how this will benefit the locals currently pulling a cart for $20 except for the olive branch of potential caddie jobs. 

[Paul OConnor]

"With that perhaps the local private clubs could open up for one day of play a week at reduced fees for the locals who have given up their course for the public good.  Perhaps maintain fee at the well reduced rate $20? The clubs could make money on food and beverage and perhaps cart revenue."

Yea right.  I'm sure the Members at Beverly CC would enthusiastically welcome all the Jackson Park golfers at $20/round. 

[Terry Lavin]

Based on my limited knowledge (I attended a detailed informational meeting that talked about the course, the related caddie program, infrastructure and fundraising), I think it would be a spectacular addition to the neighborhood.  Are there obstacles in its path?  Sure, mainly in the form of special interest groups like Friends of the Parks, who seem to like the fact that the golf courses are barely interesting enough to be playable, not to mention the pathetic maintenance that they receive.  Much in the manner that the development of Bandon Dunes was initially viewed as an affront to environmentalists, this project would greatly benefit the current environment of each golf course.  That said, the main problem, it seems to me, is that the project will require a lot of cooperation with governmental entities and a substantial investment in infrastructure.  It will also involve the closing of a couple streets.  Those may prove to be insurmountable.  If that's the case, Jackson Park and South Shore can continue to exist as subpar facilities that continue to provide inexpensive and thoroughly mundane golf for the community.  Another win for the anti-development activists, I suppose.

[Paul OConnor]

"Course name:  Obama Memorial"

Wouldn't Obama have to die first?  Or maybe resignation to the fact that he may be long dead before this course gets built?

So many bad ideas in that one post.