[Patrick_Mucci]

where you have to navigate/tack within the body of the hole, versus playing straight away.
 
What par 5's are extremely interesting because they can't be played, "straight away" ?

[SteveOgulukian]

Phuket Country Club 10th hole ..: a double cape perhaps?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

#'s 4 and 15 at Seminole always provided for interesting play, especially with varied wind conditions.

# 2 at CPC also requires some tacking as opposed to straight away play.

Ditto #'s 7 and 18 at NGLA

The hole location on # 7 at NGLA is critical to normal play of the hole.
Hole location dramatically affects positioning your second shot.
Failure to properly plan and execute can leave the golfer with a very, very, very dicey/difficult third shot, even though the hole is relatively short.

On # 18 at NGLA, the bunkering and wind rather than the hole location are the primary factors to be concerned with.

All of those par 5's are challenging, yet fun to play.

[Thomas Dai]

The 5th on the new Kilmore-9 at Carne is pretty snake like, and also has two very distinct ways it can be played. I'll try to post some photos when I can.
Atb

[Rob Marshall]

Isn't this true of almost any hole Pat? Placement of your tee shot or layup is dictated by hole location all the time. I would think tacking off the tee or on a par 5 is going to happen more often than drive it down the middle and then layup down the middle.
 

[Michael Miller]

Ditto #'s 7 and 18 at NGLA

The hole location on # 7 at NGLA is critical to normal play of the hole.
Hole location dramatically affects positioning your second shot.
Failure to properly plan and execute can leave the golfer with a very, very, very dicey/difficult third shot, even though the hole is relatively short.

Last year at NGLA I had a great round going through #6. On #7 I didn't navigate the 2nd shot correctly and ended up on the left side of the fairway, 50yds away with the pin tight to and behind the Road Hole bunker--anything short or left would end up in serious trouble. For a left pin that bunker made a seemingly straight and wide layup play narrow. Pitching from the right side looked much easier. Double dog legs and strategically placed hazards can take away the straight option on a par 5, but so too can a single bunker. I would not have wanted that shot in any real wind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,


You should have had me looping for you.


Hit your 3rd shot left, to the fat part of the green and take a two putt par and walk to the 8th tee a wiser man who didn't lose a shot to par.


If you hit it into the front bunker you're done med

[Patrick_Mucci]

Isn't this true of almost any hole Pat?


Placement of your tee shot or layup is dictated by hole location all the time.


That presumes that you're aware of the hole location and that the primary consideration on the drive isn't the avoidance of a difficult hazard/feature.


I would think tacking off the tee or on a par 5 is going to happen more often than drive it down the middle and then layup down the middle.


The great majority of golfers don't think of reverse strategy when teeing off on a par 5.   Most only think in terms of what they see confronting them in the DZ.
 

[Rob Marshall]

Isn't this true of almost any hole Pat?


Placement of your tee shot or layup is dictated by hole location all the time.


That presumes that you're aware of the hole location and that the primary consideration on the drive isn't the avoidance of a difficult hazard/feature.


I would think tacking off the tee or on a par 5 is going to happen more often than drive it down the middle and then layup down the middle.


The great majority of golfers don't think of reverse strategy when teeing off on a par 5.   Most only think in terms of what they see confronting them in the DZ.
 

Pat, what level do you have to play at to be able to execute this type of strategy? Just curious.


In general to truly appreciate what the architect is asking you to do to navigate his course. How good do I have to be? Is there a number?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rob,


I don't think it's handicap driven.


It's what I refer to as a "golfing IQ"


High handicaps can be just as aware of how to play a hole as low handicaps, they just don't have the same level of talent

[Michael Miller]

Michael,


You should have had me looping for you.


Hit your 3rd shot left, to the fat part of the green and take a two putt par and walk to the 8th tee a wiser man who didn't lose a shot to par.


If you hit it into the front bunker you're done med

I tested fate, hit it 6ft right pin high, and walked off with 4 after one of the more memorable and nerve-wracking wedge shots I can remember. Had I heeded the caddie's advice I would not have been in that position in the first place. But yes, left is the prudent play. Not sure I could get out of that bunker. What a hole.

[BCowan]

#16 at Radrick farms.  I've learned that hitting a 4 iron off the tee was the best chance to make par.  4 iron, 3 wood, and then wedge.  Take double out of the equation.  The hole is prob the worst on the course.

#3 at UM is my favorite par 5.  Being that going for it in two with a downhill lie is a dicey shot.  A failed push off the tee into fairway bunker brings bogey into play.  My last round I hit 2 iron, 2 iron and 9 iron for the 3rd.  Which I flushed over the green. That never happens with me.  I need more plays with this strategy but I feel it's the best one for me. 

Golfers IQ is a great point that senior Mucci brings up and as a former caddie it's rather not that prevelent

[Rob Marshall]

All the knowledge in the world is useless if you can't execute

[BCowan]

All the knowledge in the world is useless if you can't execute

I disagree with you to a point.  Knowing ones limitations is very important.  I had a friend play with a guy last fall who would lay up from 170 yards.  The guy shot 78 on a championship course from the members tees. 

[Jon Cavalier]

Michael,


You should have had me looping for you.


Hit your 3rd shot left, to the fat part of the green and take a two putt par and walk to the 8th tee a wiser man who didn't lose a shot to par.


If you hit it into the front bunker you're done med

I tested fate, hit it 6ft right pin high, and walked off with 4 after one of the more memorable and nerve-wracking wedge shots I can remember. Had I heeded the caddie's advice I would not have been in that position in the first place. But yes, left is the prudent play. Not sure I could get out of that bunker. What a hole.

Just thinking about even trying that shot makes me nervous.

[Rick Emerson]

My old home course in Temple Texas, Wildflower Country Club made a boring straight par 5 fun and option filled simply by adding two big specimen Trees. The only two trees in play on the par 5 force either a gamble or a play for position on the tee shot and third shot. There is a huge tree about 225 yards from the back tee on the right half of the fairway and a stream running down the left edge The fairway also slopes towards the stream and the wind usually blows right to left in Summer as as well. Only the longest hitters can clear the tree in the air so the options are to hit a cut around the tree, bringing the water into play for even the slightest double cross or hit a hybrid or wood that lands just short of the tree leaving a shot from under the tree that does not have low limbs or from just beyond the tree with firm fairways. Then, on your second shot, you have to play left of a large tree also on the right leaving a 125 -135 yard shot into the green. I have tons of trouble hitting a fade, even my wedges typically fall slightly left so I "know my limitations" after many drives into the tree or into the creek and hit a hybrid off the tee and position myself left with usually another hybrid  and then hit a 9 iron from an easy angle. Conversely, when I play the shorter tees I just bomb my high draw over the tree getting a lot of roll in the right to left fairway and then hit three wood past the second tree to just short or even on the green in a tail wind. This makes the forward tees much easier, but also boring with all strategy lost. What really sucks was playing in a Texas State Amateur Qualifier with a kid who played for Notre Dame and watching him Bomb it over the tree from the back tees and then knock it on with a hybrid when from the tips the hole is 600 yards up hill.

[Paul Gray]

Rob,


I don't think it's handicap driven.


It's what I refer to as a "golfing IQ"


High handicaps can be just as aware of how to play a hole as low handicaps, they just don't have the same level of talent

Whilst I agree with what you're saying in principle Pat, modern fairway widths combined with big sticks which high hiandicappers can hit further than ever, which equally means wider than ever, often results in all but the most aiming 'straight down the middle.' Anything else is just more risk than it's worth considering.
 
This reminds me, I owe someone else a response to a question about the ODG's and altering their work. Thanks for the reminder. 

[Rob Marshall]

All the knowledge in the world is useless if you can't execute

I disagree with you to a point.  Knowing ones limitations is very important.  I had a friend play with a guy last fall who would lay up from 170 yards.  The guy shot 78 on a championship course from the members tees.

I hear what you're saying Ben, but that's not really playing the course the way the designer intended. I have a friend with the chipping yips. If he's 200 yards out he hits a wedge to leave himself another wedge. His play has nothing to do with the layout. I would think it would be similar to a guy laying up to 170 on every hole.

[JNagle]

Always believed the 5th at Newport to be a very strategic par 5 with multiple routes to the hole.  So many variables come into play; wind, hole location and player abilities.  The 7th has strategic elements about it, but can still be played straight down the middle.

[BCowan]

All the knowledge in the world is useless if you can't execute

I disagree with you to a point.  Knowing ones limitations is very important.  I had a friend play with a guy last fall who would lay up from 170 yards.  The guy shot 78 on a championship course from the members tees.

I hear what you're saying Ben, but that's not really playing the course the way the designer intended. I have a friend with the chipping yips. If he's 200 yards out he hits a wedge to leave himself another wedge. His play has nothing to do with the layout. I would think it would be similar to a guy laying up to 170 on every hole.

Rob,

I don't think the two analogies are apples to apples comparisons.  Golden age archie built bunkers which were to be avoided. As they were true hazards.  If someone is great from 80-100 yards and knows they physically can't carry the ball 170 on a raised well bunkered green that is firm, they are wise to play to their strong suits.  Those are options that the golden age archies imployed imo.  I would bet my life that an golden age archie never considered chipping yips in their design.

Ps- I give ur friend credit for working around his issues.  I might start aiming for more pins tucked by bunkers cause my bunker play is one of the few bright spots of my game and I'm more likely to make par from a bunker then two putt from 35-40ft.

[Jason Topp]

All the knowledge in the world is useless if you can't execute

I strongly disagree with this notion.  I would in fact argue the opposite - if you can execute every shot there is not much decision making involved.  .
Fortunately, for every golfer there is a range of places where their shot could potentially wind up.  For better players that range is much smaller than for others.  Nonetheless, given one's individual shot tendencies and capabilities there are a range of potential outcomes on any particular shot.  Given that range of potential outcomes, the player should be forced by good design to make an interesting decision. Some of the most interesting strategic decisions I have witnessed have been from very poor golfers trying to tack around a formidable hazard.  High handicap golfers that make great decisions win money.

[Rob Marshall]

All the knowledge in the world is useless if you can't execute

I strongly disagree with this notion.  I would in fact argue the opposite - if you can execute every shot there is not much decision making involved.  .
Fortunately, for every golfer there is a range of places where their shot could potentially wind up.  For better players that range is much smaller than for others.  Nonetheless, given one's individual shot tendencies and capabilities there are a range of potential outcomes on any particular shot.  Given that range of potential outcomes, the player should be forced by good design to make an interesting decision. Some of the most interesting strategic decisions I have witnessed have been from very poor golfers trying to tack around a formidable hazard.  High handicap golfers that make great decisions win money.

Aren't a lot of the decisions already made for you by the design? If a tee shot has a fairway bunker left the convention wisdom is to start the ball to the right and draw it into the target area. If a tee shot has water right the conventional wisdom is to start the ball left and fade it back into the target area.  How many 18's can do that?  They may hit 4 iron, 4 iron, wedge. That's a smart decision for their ability but was the hole designed to be played that way? Bottom line I guess is that the idea behind playing golf is to shoot the lowest score possible. How you do that is up to you.

When a hole is designed is it designed to be played so that all handicaps are able to hit the green in regulation if they are playing from the correct tees? 

I guess when I read a lot of the posts here about the strategically way to play holes, IMO the majority of golfers don't have the skill to pull it off a high % of times. No disrespect intended.

[SteveOgulukian]

#16 at Lido is a good example. There have been other threads on this hole. You have to pick a side off the tee, or if playing straight, you have to make sure that you are short of the trouble.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Always believed the 5th at Newport to be a very strategic par 5 with multiple routes to the hole.
 
Isn't the 5th a par 4 ?
 
One of my favorite holes in golf.
 
So many variables come into play; wind, hole location and player abilities. 
 
The 7th has strategic elements about it, but can still be played straight down the middle.

[BCowan]

All the knowledge in the world is useless if you can't execute

I strongly disagree with this notion.  I would in fact argue the opposite - if you can execute every shot there is not much decision making involved.  .
Fortunately, for every golfer there is a range of places where their shot could potentially wind up.  For better players that range is much smaller than for others.  Nonetheless, given one's individual shot tendencies and capabilities there are a range of potential outcomes on any particular shot.  Given that range of potential outcomes, the player should be forced by good design to make an interesting decision. Some of the most interesting strategic decisions I have witnessed have been from very poor golfers trying to tack around a formidable hazard.  High handicap golfers that make great decisions win money.

Aren't a lot of the decisions already made for you by the design? If a tee shot has a fairway bunker left the convention wisdom is to start the ball to the right and draw it into the target area. If a tee shot has water right the conventional wisdom is to start the ball left and fade it back into the target area.  How many 18's can do that?  They may hit 4 iron, 4 iron, wedge. That's a smart decision for their ability but was the hole designed to be played that way? Bottom line I guess is that the idea behind playing golf is to shoot the lowest score possible. How you do that is up to you.

When a hole is designed is it designed to be played so that all handicaps are able to hit the green in regulation if they are playing from the correct tees? 

I guess when I read a lot of the posts here about the strategically way to play holes, IMO the majority of golfers don't have the skill to pull it off a high % of times. No disrespect intended.

Rob,
 
   Some of the best ball strikers in the history of Golf didn't work the ball both ways.  I think a lot of the architecture you described is found in modern design.  In Golden age there was a reason to hug a bunker (better angle into the green).  More Golden Age courses had creeks and ditches and not ponds/lakes.  Those creeks/ditches provided strategy.  If there is a large pond to the right and the 18 handicap has a fade/slice shot pattern, it might be wise for him to hit a 3wood off the tee due to it being shorter or aim left to avoid a big number. 

   Golden Age archies seemed to care less about GIR.  People with less skill need a higher golf IQ to manage themselves around the course.  With Irrigation ponds, irrigated rough, and tree planted all over the place the 18 handicap is sure behind the 8 ball.  Your last sentence about playing ability on this website.  I was a scratch golfer at one time and played in competitive golf tournaments.  Through 10 or so years of caddying one can observe how many different golfing abilities lack Golf IQ.  Less talented people need more of it.   

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