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Jeff Bergeron

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The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« on: September 06, 2015, 04:53:18 PM »
In Pat Mucci's recent thread 'I had an interesting conversation today' there was brief discussion of the ANGC syndrome. Lush green conditions, maintenance perfection, wall-to-wall green, flowers, etc. on the golf course hosting the most watched golf tournament year in and year out. I contend that ANGC has significantly influenced the expectations of American golfers. The result is excessive (1) water use, (2) fertilizer and chemicals, (3) trees and other plantings and (4) spending to achieve an unobtainable result.


So what is it? Is there an AGNC syndrome? Is it different for private and public clubs?

Carl Rogers

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Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2015, 05:02:13 PM »
Ask Donald Trump.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2015, 05:24:35 PM »

So what is it? Is there an AGNC syndrome? Is it different for private and public clubs?


It isn't ALL Augusta National's fault.  People are predisposed to like the color green, and Americans are predisposed to show off their wealth by spending ostentatiously.  Those would have happened even if Augusta had died in bankruptcy in the 1930's.


Still, the timing of The Masters each spring puts those bright green conditions square in the faces of every golfer, green chairman, and golf course superintendent just as the season is starting throughout the northeast, and that is a consistent big influence.


An aside:  We get more calls about potential new projects in April than any other month.  I'd say that's partly due to spring fever, and partly to Augusta.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2015, 06:09:27 PM »
"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven Augusta for?"

I really do think this is part of it -- i.e. Augusta as that which men dream about when they've had enough of life, or too much of it. When Tom D gets calls in April, it's this kind of dreaming that's behind them. When D Trump talks about golf as "aspirational" it's this desire for pristine otherworldliness that (he believes) his clientele aspires to.  "Augusta - that which none greater can be conceived" is the way Anslem might've put it. If Augusta didn't exist, someone would have to invent it. 

Peter
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 07:14:02 PM by PPallotta »

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2015, 06:52:09 PM »
I wrote this a while back in an excellent thread started by Tim Gavrich about the destructiveness of beautification. Sadly, most people bypassed the aforementioned thread, preferring instead to discuss Mexican immigration to America. I couldn't think of a better way of summing up everything which, beyond Augusta itself, explains exactly what we see today so thought I'd just copy and paste the lot:


To me, this is a given. The question is why......

Golf, once it had spread beyond Scotland, became the pursuit of the aristocracy. The game played which made its way from the seaside to the heathlands was not intended for the average Joe Jones. In essence, golf was posh, meaning the golf course and the English country garden were never far apart in the psyche of the golfer. Capability Brown may not have been a golf course architect but he left a legacy as to what money combined with landscape looked like, particularly in the eyes of the wannabes.

Transport the game to America and you have a new factor: American Empire. Britain is a small country and, save for some rebellious Scots and Irish, the wildlife didn't need much taming. You can hardly flex your machismo by conquering The Cotswolds. The British then focused their attention on grabbing everyone else's land. Conversely, the growth of the American Empire, painting on extra stars as you went, was always inextricably linked with going west and taming the land. There was more than enough opportunity to demonstrate your power simply by heading west and levelling the land. Little wonder then that green grass, water sources and neat lines were seen as progress.

Skip forward to the 1950's and Americanism had become about far more than simply a dream of owning your own bit of land in the sand. By the 1950's there was a whole package which included the sanitisation of everything, land included, and commercialism as god. Golf, as ever, had remained aspirational and aspiration and commercialism led to an easy sell to the masses. Of course, with the average Joe taking to golf, the bigwigs had to do something to demonstrate their greater spending power, particularly in a capitalist society where affluence was/is the measure of a man. The Joneses tried to keep up and the rich kept trying to stay ahead. Costs inevitably spiralled as everyone had to demonstrate just how much sugar they could afford.

All that is fine but doesn't explain anything beyond America. The explanation for that though is simple: America, certainly by the 1980's, was not only the dominant global power militarily, it was also the dominant cultural trend setter. Growing up as a kid in the 80's, I can confidently say that America was like a byword for cool or modern or desirable. So globally of course we saw a Trent Jones style boom as articifical courses popped up everywhere. "American style with water coming in to play on no fewer than 154 of the 18 holes" was a typical rallying cry and anyone who argued was apparently out of touch. If you could remove that sand dune, stick a cart path down and put a lake in front of the 18th green, why wouldn't you?

And finally we have the current day situation, played out at my own club at an EGM only a fortnight ago: the members who are close to pushing up the daisies are happy with the links in it's natural form, so are many of the youngest members. The guys who started playing the game in the 80's or 90's are are now the latest generation of newly retired golfers and they have a hard time understanding the notion of less being more, particularly those who grew up with less because of necessity, rather than choice. Remember, many of these guys were baby boomers; Briton's for whom getting out of pre-fabricated council house Britain, buying their own home and tidying the garden was a measure of success. Theirs is a game which ties their own masculine varility with a sense of order and achievement. Try telling them that tidy tarmac paths and 'Augustafication' are all a bit gauche. Nope, Augusta and all its greenery, to them at least, is an indisputable symbol of achievement, meaning the more like Augusta their own course is, the more they have achieved.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 07:14:28 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2015, 06:58:41 PM »

In Pat Mucci's recent thread 'I had an interesting conversation today' there was brief discussion of the ANGC syndrome. Lush green conditions, maintenance perfection, wall-to-wall green, flowers, etc. on the golf course hosting the most watched golf tournament year in and year out.
 
You have to separate, by a wide margin, a club that hosts a major, every year, in the SPRING, that's televised in color, that gets significant sponsor revenue, from local golf clubs.
 
However, there's no doubt that there's an unrealistic expectation, placed on superintendents, to duplicate those conditions, with a limited budget.
 
In addition, most clubs are presided over by a board composed of elected members, and the masses/membership, sets the expectations vis a vis those they elect to the board.
 
I contend that ANGC has significantly influenced the expectations of American golfers. The result is excessive (1) water use, (2) fertilizer and chemicals, (3) trees and other plantings and (4) spending to achieve an unobtainable result.

How much water do they use ?
How much fertilizer and chemicals do they use ?
 
ANGC was a "tree farm" before it was a golf course.
Pine trees were planted in 1933/34
 
On a hole by hole basis, what trees/plantings do you find objectionable ?
 
What is the "unobtainable result" ?

So what is it? Is there an AGNC syndrome? Is it different for private and public clubs?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2015, 07:06:36 PM »

So what is it? Is there an AGNC syndrome? Is it different for private and public clubs?

It isn't ALL Augusta National's fault. 
 
People are predisposed to like the color green, and Americans are predisposed to show off their wealth by spending ostentatiously.
 
I wouldn't classify the spending done at ANGC as "ostentatious".
 
If anything, I think ANGC spends tastefully and on a low key/profile basis.
 
The Saudi's might be said to spend ostentatiously ;D
 
Those would have happened even if Augusta had died in bankruptcy in the 1930's.

Still, the timing of The Masters each spring puts those bright green conditions square in the faces of every golfer, green chairman, and golf course superintendent just as the season is starting throughout the northeast, and that is a consistent big influence.

No question about it.
 
The Masters signals the begining of my golf season.
I look forward to it every year with great anticipation as do most of my peer golfers.
 
Anyone north of the Mason-Dixon Line knows that Spring is a wet, lush season.
 
The issue with ANGC is that most don't understand what can and can't be done to a golf course, is largely dependent upon the capital and operating budget, and ANGC is in another world in that area.

An aside:  We get more calls about potential new projects in April than any other month.  I'd say that's partly due to spring fever, and partly to Augusta.

Jeff Bergeron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2015, 08:22:11 PM »

In Pat Mucci's recent thread 'I had an interesting conversation today' there was brief discussion of the ANGC syndrome. Lush green conditions, maintenance perfection, wall-to-wall green, flowers, etc. on the golf course hosting the most watched golf tournament year in and year out.
 
You have to separate, by a wide margin, a club that hosts a major, every year, in the SPRING, that's televised in color, that gets significant sponsor revenue, from local golf clubs.
 
However, there's no doubt that there's an unrealistic expectation, placed on superintendents, to duplicate those conditions, with a limited budget.
 
In addition, most clubs are presided over by a board composed of elected members, and the masses/membership, sets the expectations vis a vis those they elect to the board.
 
I contend that ANGC has significantly influenced the expectations of American golfers. The result is excessive (1) water use, (2) fertilizer and chemicals, (3) trees and other plantings and (4) spending to achieve an unobtainable result.

How much water do they use ?
How much fertilizer and chemicals do they use ?
 
ANGC was a "tree farm" before it was a golf course.
Pine trees were planted in 1933/34
 
On a hole by hole basis, what trees/plantings do you find objectionable ?
 
What is the "unobtainable result" ?

Pat, I was referring to resources used by clubs to achieve the ANGC look. I have no idea what AGNC uses nor do I care. ANGC is in a class of it's own.
I would prefer elimination of the first cut, trees planted in the 'Tiger proofing' era, restoration of the MacKenzie style bunkers and the restoration of various creeks that used to wander through the property.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2015, 08:48:15 PM »
Jeff,

ANGC's resources are ......... Ample

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2015, 10:39:11 PM »
Jeff,
A good question, and in  38 years in the biz, I cant' say I have had clients raise budgets right after the Masters, or even say "Gotta get me some of that." In some ways, its so perfect, I doubt many clubs feel its attainable for them.  Maybe that is a good thing. 

But, while budgets raise generally, especially due to white sand bunkers, which may be based on seeing them at Augusta, or maybe just the desire for no fried egg lies, in my world, they have basically been going down in inflation adjusted dollars.  I would guess its the top 1-10% of clubs (which probably means up to 3% of courses that really try to emulate ANGC.

So, at such a low percentage, mostly from clubs in Pat's world, I say it is somewhat a false discussion.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rick Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2015, 11:32:48 PM »
First, to Paul Grey, that was extremely well written.
Now on to comments. I do not think that members of clubs and the majority of golfers believe they can emulate Augusta National. What they do think is that Augusta is the pinnacle of agronomic perfection with "perfect conditioning." This leads them to think that the more it looks like Augusta, see green, the better the conditioning. Then they say that the more green a golf course is the better the conditions. This is especially true here in China. If you aspire to have great golf and the golf you see is mainly US PGA tour coverage you would assume that modern Tournament courses are what is "the best". That means building modern looking super green +7000 yard target golf courses with super fast greens and deep rough. However, how can you blame someone who doesn't know any different.
By the way, I got to go to a Masters practice round in 2013 and the grass really is amazing. I stuck my finger down in the grass by the short game practice area and the turf was so thick that I couldn't even dig through the grass down into dirt. However, what is also amazing is how firm and fast the greens and fairways are while still being that green.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2015, 11:49:38 PM »
Jeff,


I think that some of the effort to produce conditions as viewed at the Masters stems from competition amongst local clubs.


If there are ten "local" clubs none of them want to be the low club on the "condition" totem pole, so you tend to see a keeping up with the Jones's mentality.


In a sense, I don't think that's a bad thing as competition usually produces enhanced results.


Given that most nearby local clubs enjoy the same micro-climate, competition isn't a bad thing.


Local members also tend to play the other local clubs, hence a frame of reference can often be established.


Obviously,disparities in budgets can impact results, but today, I see clubs embarking on peer group studies in order to compare budgets and evaluate results, and not just on the golf course, but on all facets of operation.


To a great degree, I think the "Augusta syndrome" is passé.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2015, 09:18:55 AM »
I wrote this a while back in an excellent thread started by Tim Gavrich about the destructiveness of beautification. Sadly, most people bypassed the aforementioned thread, preferring instead to discuss Mexican immigration to America. I couldn't think of a better way of summing up everything which, beyond Augusta itself, explains exactly what we see today so thought I'd just copy and paste the lot:


To me, this is a given. The question is why......

Golf, once it had spread beyond Scotland, became the pursuit of the aristocracy. The game played which made its way from the seaside to the heathlands was not intended for the average Joe Jones. In essence, golf was posh, meaning the golf course and the English country garden were never far apart in the psyche of the golfer. Capability Brown may not have been a golf course architect but he left a legacy as to what money combined with landscape looked like, particularly in the eyes of the wannabes.

Transport the game to America and you have a new factor: American Empire. Britain is a small country and, save for some rebellious Scots and Irish, the wildlife didn't need much taming. You can hardly flex your machismo by conquering The Cotswolds. The British then focused their attention on grabbing everyone else's land. Conversely, the growth of the American Empire, painting on extra stars as you went, was always inextricably linked with going west and taming the land. There was more than enough opportunity to demonstrate your power simply by heading west and levelling the land. Little wonder then that green grass, water sources and neat lines were seen as progress.

Skip forward to the 1950's and Americanism had become about far more than simply a dream of owning your own bit of land in the sand. By the 1950's there was a whole package which included the sanitisation of everything, land included, and commercialism as god. Golf, as ever, had remained aspirational and aspiration and commercialism led to an easy sell to the masses. Of course, with the average Joe taking to golf, the bigwigs had to do something to demonstrate their greater spending power, particularly in a capitalist society where affluence was/is the measure of a man. The Joneses tried to keep up and the rich kept trying to stay ahead. Costs inevitably spiralled as everyone had to demonstrate just how much sugar they could afford.

All that is fine but doesn't explain anything beyond America. The explanation for that though is simple: America, certainly by the 1980's, was not only the dominant global power militarily, it was also the dominant cultural trend setter. Growing up as a kid in the 80's, I can confidently say that America was like a byword for cool or modern or desirable. So globally of course we saw a Trent Jones style boom as articifical courses popped up everywhere. "American style with water coming in to play on no fewer than 154 of the 18 holes" was a typical rallying cry and anyone who argued was apparently out of touch. If you could remove that sand dune, stick a cart path down and put a lake in front of the 18th green, why wouldn't you?

And finally we have the current day situation, played out at my own club at an EGM only a fortnight ago: the members who are close to pushing up the daisies are happy with the links in it's natural form, so are many of the youngest members. The guys who started playing the game in the 80's or 90's are are now the latest generation of newly retired golfers and they have a hard time understanding the notion of less being more, particularly those who grew up with less because of necessity, rather than choice. Remember, many of these guys were baby boomers; Briton's for whom getting out of pre-fabricated council house Britain, buying their own home and tidying the garden was a measure of success. Theirs is a game which ties their own masculine varility with a sense of order and achievement. Try telling them that tidy tarmac paths and 'Augustafication' are all a bit gauche. Nope, Augusta and all its greenery, to them at least, is an indisputable symbol of achievement, meaning the more like Augusta their own course is, the more they have achieved.


I do like to read a good bit of chippy socialism, very entertaining. Unfortunately, some of it is fairly spurious, indeed quite a lot of it I suspect. From the notion that golf became the preserve of the aristocracy to the wild west being tamed by the building of golf courses, there is some fairly far-fetched ideas in there.


One question I would ask Paul though about his recent experience at his clubs EGM, and that was what were the "Augusta" faction actually asking for ? Was it cart paths, or ponds, or just that they wanted the grass to be more lush and greener ?


Niall

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2015, 10:00:56 AM »
Socialism? Where? I don't recall mentioning anything about the public ownership of golf courses. I'd love to hear what was vaguely socialistic about what I wrote, or even what was so spurious about the historic link between golf and aspiration.
 
Anyway, the EGM was about those all important high brow issues. You know, the new path on the 8th not being as smart as it could be, the golf balls left in the rough where some gorse had burnt down and the state of the flower beds on the 1st tee. These were apparently all key issues for "an aspiring course such as ours." One of the geniuses that was good enough to bring this to the attention of the members was a former Chairman of the Greens, a man who managed to destroy the entire design intent of one of Tom Simpson's holes by removing the left portion of the fairway on the 4th hole and replacing it with wavy lines which saw the fairway contract from 50 yards to 20. I wasn't a member when that was done but have since managed to get it rectified, partially at least. Apparently it was an essential change in his eyes to improve the course. Obviously he knew better than Simpson about golf course architecture. Or maybe, just maybe, he'd seen endless televised events and tried to transport a bit of that to our rugged links. After all, courses on TV must be the best, right?   
 
 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 02:28:51 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Bradley Anderson

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Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2015, 10:22:39 AM »
Variations of this subject keep popping up on GCA and it always strikes me as odd that so many people think that the golf course superintendent can be expected to ho-hum along with status quo. I can't even conceive of what kind of man I would have to become for me to stop advocating for improving my own golf course. I am near the end of a long career and the fire in me burns as strong as ever.

I acknowledge that my recommendations are subjective in the sense that they come from my own opinions and values. But I can honestly say that not all of my recommendations would have required increasing the budget. On balance I would say that every club I have ever worked for would be in a much more sustainable position if they had followed my recommendations.

Most golf course superintendents are very much NOT in control of the direction that their clubs take. Most clubs don't even have an asset reserve schedule - they just make it up as they go along.


Steve Lang

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Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2015, 11:17:50 AM »
 8) Bradley,


Have you ever been asked to replicate ANGC themes at your courses??  I suspect if so, they were basically unsustainable on a long term basis.  Heck, many folks probably don't know how many days a year ANGC is open... 

My point of reference is the SHO the week or so before the Masters, they try to replicate to attract players for practice and have been complimented on executing the ANGC basic themes of green speeds, close mown areas, etc. , but don't even attempt to maintain such conditions after the tournament leaves... I can't imagine a club doing anything in a sustainable way.
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2015, 12:18:52 PM »
I am not sure that the Augusta National standard is as unsustainable as you might think. The Augusta National green is achieved with very high rates of ryegrass overseeding in the fall. Beyond that, there isn't that much difference between the volume of water and fertilizer used at Augusta verses other clubs.

They have a consistent motif and presentation through out the entire property, more so than any club I have ever visited, but any club could achieve that standard over time if they had consistent leadership and vision at the helm. It is generally a matter if simply having good taste when it comes time to refurbish  infrastructure.

The daily mowing that is performed during the tournament is standard procedure at all professional tournaments.

I guess one could argue that the repositioning of bunkers and periodic regrassing of their greens is not sustainable, however in each of those projects they took advantage of innovations that have certainly reduced inputs.

The thing to keep in mind here is that the Augusta Nationals of the world are funding the innovations that make golf more affordable and more enjoyable at the beginners level. The analogy I use is the movie Wall Street where Michael Douglas is using a cell phone that is the size of brick and it costs about $10,000 a year to use. Innovation often starts with those who can afford the new technology. Now we can all use cell phones for a few dollars every month. The bentgrasses that were bred for the greens at Augusta use almost no water and the fungicides inputs are a third of what we have to spray on grasses like Poa annua to achieve the same conditions.


« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 12:25:03 PM by Bradley Anderson »

Niall C

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Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2015, 12:26:43 PM »
Paul


Don't get me wrong, I enjoy your posts but they are usually obsessed (too strong a word ?) with class consciousness and bemoaning the actions of the ruling class whoever that is, reference your comments on golf becoming the pursuit of the aristocracy; becoming posh once it spread from Scotland; and reference to Council houses etc.


Setting aside whether my inference from your comments was correct with regards to politics, the notion that golf became posh and the preserve of the aristocracy at the advent of the 1890's golf boom just doesn't stack up. There have been royalty, dukes, early and what have you playing golf from the days of Mary Queen of Scots so nothing has really changed in that respect. However if you look at who were the movers and shakers from the 1890's on they were solidly middle class. Furthermore the expansion of the game included the working class as evidenced by the number of artisan clubs that sprung up.


With regards to golf course design/upkeep during this period it went from rough and ready man made features to the more naturalistic look promoted by the likes of Beale, Colt, MacKenzie, Ambrose and latterly Simpson. Flower beds and cart paths were the antithesis of this movement.


As for the guy at your AGM, the idea of keeping the place a bit tidier doesn't seem too outrageous a proposition. It seems a long way from over watering and cart paths everywhere, but perhaps you're right, maybe it's the thin end of the wedge  ;D .


Niall
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 03:48:47 AM by Niall Carlton »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2015, 12:35:59 PM »
Bradley,
 
Great posts !

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2015, 01:20:52 PM »
I wish I could find and post a super’s blog about working at Augusta.  (Aussie super trained in the US) I read it some time ago and was rather surprised by a few things.  Of course the first thing a new hire does is sign a confidentiality agreement, so it wasn’t a tell-all--more general stuff.  The build up to the Masters is quite focused and very labor intensive.  Unbelievable attention to detail.  What stuck in my ever more feeble memory that I found surprising:

1.   They actually try to limit fertilizer, water, chemicals and other growth agents.  Growing grass means more mowing.
2.   They hand water the entire course to achieve the firmness, especially in the month before the tournament.  I think he said they don’t use the automatic irrigation for the greens several months before and on the fairways the last month.  Water as needed where needed.
3.   Back then (when this guy worked there), they had a super assigned to each nine holes.
4.   They sharpen their mower reels every day.
5.   There is an entire crew to maintain all of the non turf areas.
6.   The cross walks have some sort of mesh matts the grass grows through.
7.   In the final weeks leading to the tournament, the crew grows from something like 40 to 60 to the 100 used during tournament week. 

Basically, there are a lot of myths about what they do.  Attention to detail is not one.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2015, 01:24:48 PM »
Niall,
 
I take your point. I do however feel you might get the wrong end of the stick from time to time. Perhaps that's my fault. I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with the ruling classes playing golf, nor that moving from a council house to something nicer was anything other than a pleasant change. I was simply noting the facts, as I see them, of the matter, nothing more and nothing less. The fact that artisan clubs popped up surely only serves as evidence of class division in the game. Any game which insists that toffs have one clubhouse and everyone else another, not to mention pros not being allowed anywhere near the big house, surely can't be anything other than social divide. You could make similar arguments about gentlemen and players in cricket without being accused of being a socialist. That term gets thrown around far too liberally it seems to me. For the record, I'm a fully paid up, middle of the road, Liberal Democrat. Insert jokes as deemed applicable. We probably deserve it after the last shambles!  ;D
 
Here's the rub: I have no issue with anyone wanting to tidy the place up. I have a huge issue however with anyone who thinks the role of a Greens Committee is to serve as a beautification panel. It's not that beautification is such an issue, simply that it becomes of hugely inflated importance in the minds of people who want to have a say on the place but, beyond discussing what the greens are stimping at, really have nothing else to say about the course.
 
Just as a hypothetical example, no one that called for that EGM would have even known what I was talking about if I'd starting talking about the cape effect on the 9th and whether the addition of the 2nd bunker would have met with Simpson's approval or not. If I'd mentioned anything of the sort I would have been greeted with a series of blank looks. And yet that didn't for one second stop these 'experts' from gathering 200 members together to discuss whether the course was good, bad or indifferent and whether therefore we should seriously consider removing the head greenkeeper from his job. The poor guy. Never mind a need for more socialistic equality on the subject, I'd rather insert a bit of Nietzsche to reiterate that all opinions are most certainly not equal.
 
So anyway, you have a procession of people who want desperately to leave their mark on the course but have never thought to pick up a book on the subject of golf course architect. The clamour then for beautification is hardly surprising. Again, it's what you talk about when you want to say something but have nothing to say. A little knowledge really is a dangerous thing.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jeff Bergeron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2015, 02:13:41 PM »
Jeff,

ANGC's resources are ......... Ample
Pat:


You are the master of understatement.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2015, 05:28:47 PM »
Bradley, Dave,

excellent posts. Thanks

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2015, 10:29:17 AM »
Paul
 
At the different clubs I’ve been a member at I’ve never had a conversation with a fellow member about what the greens are stimping at for the simple reason neither of us would have the first idea how fast a green speed is in relation to stimp ratings.

In my experience members tend to complain about greens being too slow which is not the same thing as saying they want them lightning fast. They simply don’t want to have to make a half swing to get the ball across the green. However they do want them to be true and not bumpy but I don’t see that being a bad thing. Likewise they don’t want mud on their ball, again not a bad thing. I can’t recall a fellow member or golfer commenting on a preference for colour of grass but plenty do comment on the colour as an observation as to whether a course is dry or wet with an obvious preference for dry.

So when it comes to playing conditions I think generally speaking clubs in the UK don’t have the Augusta syndrome. Where it perhaps has crept in is the growing trend to put in footpaths round tees, ball washers at every tee, stone markers for every tee, bins etc. Simply far too much ornamentation.  Then there is the advent of flower beds on a golf course. Dreadful….the only word for it. Thankfully not too many clubs have been struck down with that particular affliction.

And as much as you decry the efforts of uneducated members, I tend to think that damn near every classic course in the UK designed by one of the greats has had a fair bit of tinkering by various committees or greens conveners over the years resulting in the exalted courses we have today. Indeed if it wasn’t for tinkerers like John Low and Stuart Paton where would golf course architecture be ?
 
Niall 

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 'ANGC Syndrome'. Does it really exist?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2015, 01:33:01 PM »
Niall,
 
STIMP: Stimp readings at many clubs, mine included, are used as a barometer of quality. You make reference to roll and I'm in complete agreement. The thing is though, the stimpeter is not designed to judge smooth roll. I know Lorne Smith is a particular advocate of an alternative measure, much as I beleive is actually used now by some architects if I recall correctly the report Mackenzie and Ebert provided for Hayling. I have no issue with clubs measuring the quality of greens then. I have a big issue with a push to stimp up greens so as to require the most interesting contours to be flattened.
 
GRASS COLOUR: Really?! You've never heard anyone dismiss a golf course for being too brown? Never heard anyone say the course needs a downpour to get the course back to top condition? You've never heard "lush green golf course" used as a sales pitch? Come on now. I don't know whereabouts you are in the country but such talk is common here in the south.
 
PATHS ETC: No argument here. What makes anyone want to pave paradise is anyone's guess. Actually, I have a lengthy theory as you well know but you'll only accuse me of being a socialist if I expand any further.  ;D
 
MEMBERS: Why is it that whenever someone points out that most members are clueless, someone inevitably mentions the exception which proves the rule? Yes, John Low was a golf club member, as are you and I and the vast majority of informed folk here on GCA. That says nothing about the typical level of knowledge of the golf club member. To point out they lack knowledge is invariably interpreted as an arrogant put down. In fact, it's no more of a put down than pointing out to me that my knowledge of quantum physics isn't great. I've never studied it, at least not unless watching a few 30 minute documentaries can be called study, and therefore don't know about it. The thing is, I'm not likely to stand up in front of a room of 200 people who might or might not have studied the subject and declare myself an expert. That, surely, would be truly arrogant, and yet that's exactly what golfers do when they think themselves qualified to interfere with the work of a professional golf course architect. A tree or pond here or there can't do any harm, can it? If it makes the course prettier, or makes it look more mature, where's the harm? Well as you and I both know, it can do a lot of bloody harm!  ;)
 
No wonder then that the history of GCA is littered with quotes from those ODG's bemoaning the club member. But I digress.
 
 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich