[Jason Lietaer]

Interesting thread. 


Peter -- One of the things that strikes me as a read this is that this group is about the worst possible focus group for this question or point of view.  For example, various posters mention Streamsong and Bandon -- which only a small portion of the golfing public ever really see.  They are busy places, but most of the guys that I play with, or know, haven't been to either, let alone both.  I (and many of the people o this board) have been to both.  Also, I think the people on this board would be wildly over-representative of those who travel to play golf as a key part of their life; or as something they prioritize above other things.  If you are interested in the study of GCA, you must travel -- that's just the way it is, unless you live on Long Island, or in the Melbourne Sandbelt, or the coast of Scotland.  And even still, to get the variety we crave, you have to get on a plane.


Wayne -- you mention St Thomas and Redtail, and Peter mentions two Thompson courses (I assume they are Cutten Club and Westmount).  I happen to be a member at St Thomas for the exact reasons mentioned by many posters: great local atmosphere, fantastic course, support great GCA in an area that needs it.   Retail's current rate is about $15K a year to Wayne's point, and my out of town membership costs me $1600 a year at St Thomas -- leaving me $3400 left in Peter's hypothetical budget for some travel.   And that's about what I spend, giving me the best of both worlds.


In short, I don't know many guys that call themselves golfers that give up their 30 rounds a year at a local course for a once a year blowout to Kohler or Ireland.  I think most of the travel is done with disposable, discretionary income; while the local club comes out of the more "fixed" or "must-have" budget.  If I had to cancel one or the other, the travel goes, for sure.


JASON

[Paul Gray]

Globalisation, as well as providing a degree of homogenisation, provided specialisation. It follows then that, rather than all and sundry simply belonging to a local course they happen to like, people with particular tastes form global clubs. I give you GCA.com
 
Membership of these 'sects' doesn't decrease or increase the committment to the form of entertainment sought. It does however dilute appreciate of one particular venue. That though doesn't mean local clubs suffer, at least not while enough people keep paying their dues and offering their time, a behaviour pattern more frequently demonstrated at the ma and pa and top end courses, rather than the conveyor belt water fountain exhibition centres which popped up in the 90's.
 
So the cheap 9 hole venue, owned by the local farmer and complete with all sorts of planning restrictions, carries on regardless and Sunningdale does just fine with an ever broader clientelle. The overtly beautified faux golf course market then continues to suffer and choice therein contracts whilst the £10 green fees and the £310 green fee places continue without too many problems. Fine by me.     

[Tom_Doak]

my out of town membership costs me $1600 a year at St Thomas -- leaving me $3400 left in Peter's hypothetical budget for some travel.   And that's about what I spend, giving me the best of both worlds.


In short, I don't know many guys that call themselves golfers that give up their 30 rounds a year at a local course for a once a year blowout to Kohler or Ireland.  I think most of the travel is done with disposable, discretionary income; while the local club comes out of the more "fixed" or "must-have" budget.  If I had to cancel one or the other, the travel goes, for sure.

Jason:


Welcome to the discussion.


What I've heard over recent years, anecdotally, is that more golfers ARE giving up their 30 rounds a year at their local private club, in favor of three trips a year to somewhere cool, plus a few rounds at home with friends on public courses or at their friends' clubs.  That's a logical response to pressures from home and family, and to the oversupply of fine courses that are open to the public.  The traditional club model is suffering pretty much everywhere I see it.


Crystal Downs, as Peter mentioned, is an exception.  It was founded to serve the people who owned summer homes in the Crystal Lake area, and the people who gravitate there still have pretty much the same lifestyle as before ... they spend the summers up north, and it doesn't involve carpools and soccer games so much.  The club's stability really doesn't have much at all to do with the quality of the course, except that it's immune to pressure from new competitors.


Though I do see the trend tilting toward destination golf -- and I've played a dual role in that -- building a destination course that's actually profitable is still far from easy.  Bandon is successful because it has a big "local" golfer base [I'm talking Portland and Seattle, where private club members can't play much winter golf at home due to soggy conditions] in addition to the out-of-state visitors.  Repeat business is important to almost any business model, and golf is no exception.  The guys who think that all they need is to get everyone to visit once, don't have a plan for what happens when the tap runs dry.

[John Kavanaugh]

I doubt if the members at Cyrstal Downs calculate the cost per round. Like a wise man told me...If you want to have a club somebody has got to pay the dues. I got dues, you got shoes, now what's for dinner.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Permit me to think out loud, as I develop this:
 
I am a bit saddened to see that the language of the marketplace has become a dominant part of our thinking (conscious or not) when it comes to golf, i.e. when it comes to our desire to experience golf at what we've come to think of as "its best".   
 
In the financial/economic development sector, we've long been used to ideas/elements such as unfettered trade and the global marketplace and international supply chains and the efficient movement of capital and goods and out-sourcing and low-cost foreign service providers and the global commodities market. We get shirts made in Bangladesh and have our computer questions answered in New Delhi and (in the winter months) get seasonal fruits from thousands of miles from our homes.   
 
Please: I have no interest in debating the pros and cons/political underpinnings of any of this, except as it relates to golf. And on that point, I'd ask: what has happened to the golfing-version of "Buying Local"?
 
If 30-50% of the threads on this board are somehow related to rankings and ratings, I'd say almost as many are related to our search for an ideal golfing experience, i.e. our willingness and tendency to travel (sometimes great distance) to play golf in some new/better location than the one we have nearby, at courses that are vastly superior -- we believe -- to the ones we have easy access to and thus that make the time and travel and expense more than worth it.
 
It seems that most of us have become (or one day wish to become) "citizens of the golfing world" -- tied to no one location or to a single home club, and seemingly unconcerned about the local courses that are struggling or closing nearby because we no longer expect or want to limit the majority of our golf to these local communities. We know what's great and we know where to get it, and off we go. It's in Scotland, this golfing experience we so want and deserve; or it's near the Black Sea; and if you're in Australia it's on the American west coast, and if you're in Canada it's in Florida, and if you're in England it's in New Jersey.
 
And it seems that no one even questions this anymore, i.e. the value and sustainability and (dare I say) "ethics" of this. Indeed, it seems that we now praise and prize this tendency to travel -- this status as a citizen of the golfing world -- above all else; it says that we are men and women who can "appreciate" great golf, and that we "won't settle for second best", and that we are able to check off the items on our bucket lists and thus be fulfilled.
 
In short, we have embraced and value highly the golfing equivalent of unfettered trade and of the global marketplace and of international supply chains (so that we can "get more" or "pay less", or both), and meanwhile the golfing equivalents of manufacturing plants in Ohio and Pennsylvania keep closing and putting people out of work.  We have more, while many of our neighbours have less.
 
Again, please, I beg you: don't make this a political/left/right/Obama/Bush thread. If anyone is interested in the thread as it relates solely to golf (and as I re-read this, I think probably few will be), I'd like to hear your thoughts. 
 
Peter

Golf has gotten caught up in this broader "experience culture" where every significant expense must be justified by a bucket list then tweeted, instagrammed and vined to death, to confirm this indeed was a "great experience."

The positive side of Experience Culture, and there is a positive side, is something of a turn away from buy buy buy consumerism, which tends to be expressed through product purchases as those are more easily seen by others, confirming the buyer's status/class/taste/ability to spend $.  Experience is or should be intrinsic and personal.

But all the sharing and picture-taking perverts it into consumerism. Use of these technologies are a means to productize an experience. That gets really tiresome for those forced to wade through, say, the one-millionth photo tour of [insert GCA favorite].

The other bad thing about the Experience Culture Is what you address directly: everything has to be....an Experience. "I paid a lot, so it must produce a great Experience for me. But since I paid a lot, it must be a great Experience. So let me share what everybody knows is a Great Experience."

It is too easy to fall into a trap woven by the noise of social media and high-priced golf where one believes the hype. It may be true in certain instances like TOC and Pebble but you have to throw those babies out with the Experience Culture bath water, and turn to the truly personal experiences, which in the current culture no one will care about.

No one will want to hear your opinions or see your pictures of your lowercase-e experience. In this way you will know you have hit on something truly personal and meaningful. As far a golf goes, it will be a course you really enjoy playing but that isn't over saturated in Experience.

And then one day some tastemaker will post a photo tour wildly praising said course, a path will start to appear for the Experience Culture members to get there...and a second photo tour will pop up.

You will feel the sadness all the way down into your bones.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark - that was a remarkably good post. You combine heart and mind in a very elegant and holistic way.


Jason - and you, sir, must be a psychic. Either that or you have a strikingly in depth knowledge of Thompson's  work. You indeed 'guessed' correctly the two courses I was referring to.


Peter


 

[BCowan]

We have always had retail golf, doral, pinehurst, greenbrier, ect.

Also u state crystal, which u could be a member there and afford a trip to Bandon assuming u inherited a house in the area.  There are a few top clubs in the country that are $3,000 or less a year.  $5,000+ a year plus initiation is a lot of money to ask guys to pay who their wives don't play.  My course does 30,000 rounds a year and has a waiting list.  Another gcaer txted me and said a course in Minn, is $2,500 a year with a 10 year waiting list. 

You blame our age bracket for the demise of snooty private golf that has been run poorly for a half century.  Now people my age can take trips to nice courses, and not deal with food minimums, assessments, and courses choked by trees.  Plus the young golfer doesn't have to know somebody to get on a world class course, he just plans a trip.  Ain't life grand

But the old guard thinks that early morning weekend tee time is only time people play golf on a 13hr summer day.  If certain privates transitioned to individual memberships at half the cost they might find u full parking lot to jkava dismay.  I bet my course has less rake n runners than barneys VN.

Plus I grew up on ohio.  The clubs doing well are the ones offering value.  Our generation isn't all about top this.  Give us a Doak 5 or 6 that is affordable and down to earth.  30 rounds at $5,000 a year is over a $161 a round.  Don't under estimate the influence of caddy Shack. 

[David Kelly]

Peter,
Addressing your question to participants on Golf Club ATLAS seems to me the same as asking people on 6SpeedOnline http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/ why people aren't satisfied with driving simple, fuel efficient cars.

[Peter Pallotta]

 
You're probably right, David. I think I have some type of compulsion to try to 'round out' my personality so that I might actually WANT that boring fuel efficient car instead of buying one just because I SHOULD.
Peter

[Steve Lang]

We have always had retail golf, doral, pinehurst, greenbrier, ect.

....  Now people my age can take trips to nice courses, and not deal with food minimums, assessments, and courses choked by trees.  Plus the young golfer doesn't have to know somebody to get on a world class course, he just plans a trip.  Ain't life grand

Ben, 35 years ago we'd travel from NW Ohio to Southern Pines on a saturday in the spring, tee it up at The Elks on Sunday, play 2-3 rounds a day till next saturday (either every course different or with nominal $10 replays at favs) ... drive back sat-sun maybe play if it worked out, back to once a week of summer/fall play... it was always about the group first, course second..


nothing really new, things just a lot more expensive and different travel logistics!

[Tom_Doak]

No one will want to hear your opinions or see your pictures of your lowercase-e experience. In this way you will know you have hit on something truly personal and meaningful. As far a golf goes, it will be a course you really enjoy playing but that isn't over saturated in Experience.

And then one day some tastemaker will post a photo tour wildly praising said course, a path will start to appear for the Experience Culture members to get there...and a second photo tour will pop up.

You will feel the sadness all the way down into your bones.

Had you posted that three years ago I might not be updating my book.  But then I would never have been driven to start traveling again for the experience, which has been very worth it to me.  I just hope I don't ruin it for others.

[Jeff Taylor]

"It is too easy to fall into a trap woven by the noise of social media and high-priced golf where one believes the hype. It may be true in certain instances like TOC and Pebble but you have to throw those babies out with the Experience Culture bath water, and turn to the truly personal experiences, which in the current culture no one will care about. No one will want to hear your opinions or see your pictures of your lowercase-e experience. In this way you will know you have hit on something truly personal and meaningful. As far a golf goes, it will be a course you really enjoy playing but that isn't over saturated in Experience. "


Wow. We really are taking this way too seriously. Did I just read that one cannot have a "truly personal experience" at an "experience culture" golf destination? True meaning lies off the beaten path? Maybe not. Maybe so. I recall sitting outside my room at Bandon Dunes one night in 2009. My best friend in life was checking his computer and I was having a bourbon and looking up at the stars. We talked about the day, the golf, the surroundings. It was a truly personal experience. I should feel shame that I did record the trip with images and I did post them on my website and I did share them with friends. Guilty as charged. I am prepared for my punishment.

[Jason Lietaer]

Peter -- I don't think I'm a psychic!  There are only so many Thompson courses in the top 20 in Canada outside provincial parks, and I got the sense you weren't talking about Cap.


Tom -- I agree with your analysis.  I used the word "local" when talking about St Thomas, not "private" and I don't mean them interchangeably.  I believe the issue you raise is a little different than the first question was framed: and I think you're bang on. People are not willing to make the investment for the private club experience like they once were. You know the area well: London Ontario has some of the best private and public courses in the country from a per capita standpoint.  The issue of choice that you raise is huge -- why pay to join the Hunt Club when I can play Tarandowah for 50 bucks?


My point is that most people have a "local" budget and a "travel" budget, and the people I know generally don't give up local golf for to plan these destination trips.  But I do think they are less likely to COMMIT their resources for a lifetime (or a number of years) in the event they change their mind.  Plus, the negotiating leverage has been flipped: it used to be that the private course could be discerning because of a lack of competition.  Now with a number of factors (more courses, less time, more expectations on parents, especially dads) mean that the golfer has the leverage, and he/she is using it.

Tom mentioned Crystal Downs.  It's still my favourite golf course I've ever played and I'll always work hard to make the trip up there.  The first time I played it my buddy and I immediately started scouting property around the area to see if there was any available with membership rights, despite no plan to pay for it or convince our wives to start traveling there.   I take your point about the lack of pressures: people who are there for the whole summer and no analogous competition.  But we shouldn't pretend that there is no public golf close by -- Arcadia Bluffs, despite its faults, is close and Traverse City is full of public golf.  I can't imagine any Downs member trading in their membership for the opportunity to play any of those courses even once because the Downs is so special.   It's in a different league, and one of the most special places I can imagine to be a member. 
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]JASON [/size]

[James Brown]

It's not either or.  You can travel  widely and  also be happy at a simple home course.  I have played for 15 years at East Potomac Park in DC which might be the simplest and most basic course in America.  It's a good walk and has great scenery, but that's it.  Loving the simplicity of my home course makes me yearn for the great ones around the world, which I chip at one blessed week a year. 

[Mike_Young]

Peter,

I think guys like Keiser have researched the markets and as with most good business men, "he skates to where the puck will be".  He might delve into this site here and there but IMHO he is not using this site to determine his customer. 

Where he differs from so many courses discussed on this site is that he is a for profit venture.  For years the great courses we all travel to play are all private clubs, usually 501c7 clubs where managers and supts and golf pros are there to deliver what the members want and profit is not discussed. 

Compare to restaurants.  Courses like Bandon are the top restaurants in the country and people eat there once every few years.  The same for the top private clubs. Their market is nationwide.   Then we have those regional clubs which would be like Longhorn Steaks Houses.  People eat at these places each weekend or maybe once during the week.  Theirmarket is a 40 mile radius.  Good, hardworking local people eat in the Longhorns with no clue  the Bandons even exist.   The BurgerKings where they eat lunch compare to the $15 green fee local course they play in the afternoons.  Their market is within 10 miles. 
All of these places are needed and will continue.  We just have a shrinking base.  I was reading today that we were at 28 million core golfers and now we are projected at 23 million with most logical assessments being we will level out around 20 million.  Due to population shifts areas like the SE USA and Phoenix area etc will be fine.  Areas like Detroit etc may have a few issues but the issues is going to be players not courses.  Even global businesses would close plants or decrease production if they were to see a decrease in their customer base.   

The golf glamour has never been around the for profit operator trying to make a buck.  It has always been around the not for profit clubs being subsidized by non golfing memberships etc and operated by managers whose main purpose is to serve the member. This will continue and the for profit owner has no intentions of going to a bunch of meetings and informing some ,"50 most important people in golf management company executive" his secrets.   In the last 30 years the golf industry( free trade ethos) has thrived on an unknowing , subsidized, unprofitable golf culture.   We are just going thru a clean up....

[Mark Pavy]

Mike, what definition are you using for a 'core' golfer?

[Mike_Young]

Mike, what definition are you using for a 'core' golfer?

I use the definitions of the Pellucid Report    the others seem to be biased

[Carl Rogers]

No one will want to hear your opinions or see your pictures of your lowercase-e experience. In this way you will know you have hit on something truly personal and meaningful. As far a golf goes, it will be a course you really enjoy playing but that isn't over saturated in Experience.

And then one day some tastemaker will post a photo tour wildly praising said course, a path will start to appear for the Experience Culture members to get there...and a second photo tour will pop up.

You will feel the sadness all the way down into your bones.

Had you posted that three years ago I might not be updating my book.  But then I would never have been driven to start traveling again for the experience, which has been very worth it to me.  I just hope I don't ruin it for others.

Tom, I want to hear what you have to say.  I want to hear what Ran, Darius & others who have had the opportunity and privilege to travel, think and reflect about the design of courses without financial interest in the review.
I wish I had the opportunity to do 5% as much and form my own opinions.
Mark, it is a function of whose opinions you respect.

[BCowan]

We have always had retail golf, doral, pinehurst, greenbrier, ect.

....  Now people my age can take trips to nice courses, and not deal with food minimums, assessments, and courses choked by trees.  Plus the young golfer doesn't have to know somebody to get on a world class course, he just plans a trip.  Ain't life grand

 


Ben, 35 years ago we'd travel from NW Ohio to Southern Pines on a saturday in the spring, tee it up at The Elks on Sunday, play 2-3 rounds a day till next saturday (either every course different or with nominal $10 replays at favs) ... drive back sat-sun maybe play if it worked out, back to once a week of summer/fall play... it was always about the group first, course second..


nothing really new, things just a lot more expensive and different travel logistics!

Steve,
 
   I hear you, I remember going to myrtle beach during the Christmas holidays and playing with the family praying that it would be 55 degs for a high.  The buffet breakfast was a highlight of the trip.  It still is dirt cheap that time of year and had many good times.  I guess i was never a retail golfer.  It was good fun and thankfully we don't have a travel Czar. 

  I was at Tamaron yest and talked to the super, you know the course is located in sand and has good land movement.  They are really hurting and the keeper has done great work with nothing.  Going to play there next week, hope they can hang in there. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Peter,


i was about two years old when I fell in love with golf courses thanks to my parent's membership at Leewood Golf Club in Eastchester, NY, a course that has no claim to fame except that Babe Ruth was a member way back when.


At ten years old, in 1966, I purchased my first book about "golf architecture". That was the year Sports Illustrated published its famous "Best 18 Holes in America". Some people don't like the author Dan Jenkins, but the opening paragraph of his description of Pine Valley ("any man who has ever waggled a wedge with serious intent know about Pine Valley") got me hooked. I decided then that I would travel the world and see as many of the world's best courses.


That was long before people talked about "globalization" and I certainly - at ten years old - never thought about the "ethics" of travel. I just hoped I would be able to do it. I loved golf courses. Knew they weren't all in my back yard and knew if that was really my passion, lots of travel would be required.


Though I have been fortunate to travel a fair amount, no golf adventure stands out more than my very first trip to Ballybunion. This was well before the Celtic Tiger had arrived. Unemployment stood at about 40-45 percent, I was told by locals and you could definitely sense it. People didn't have much. Even light and heat were a luxury.


So, forgive me, I just don't have an ethical problem with travel. I just didn't and don't see a problem spending my money that way.

[Rick Emerson]

I'm reading all these posts and there are so many good points being made and I have so many ideas floating around in my head. However, this is the one idea that stands out. I love golf and I will do what it takes to play golf regularly. As my situation has changed where, when, and how I play golf has changed.
When I was younger I had lots of time, but was broke, so I worked at any course I could and played on that course regardless of condition or architectural merit. Then, when I had my first real job I only had time to play when I was off and only had a little expendable income. A club membership was not cost effective. Cheap muni twilight play was the only option. In my second job I worked longer hours and had children but had a little more money and a flexible work schedule. This made the early weekday round at my inexpensive club once a week, and sneaking away for unlimited free practice during a lunch break cost effective. Now I live in China. I have harsh winters, very expensive courses, and a workload with consistent long daytime hours. I also have young boys and want my time with them on the weekends. However, as a teacher, I also have multiple holiday breaks, summers off, and more expendable income. This makes my current golf option travel to places I want to see and enjoy for golf in spurts. The most cost effective way to get a lot of quality golf in a week or less is to take a trip. I play very little golf compared to when I lived in the states, but when I do play, I play a lot of golf in a place I enjoy. I'm also going to explore the courses of the Eastern World while I'm here and it's cheaper to do it.


I think everyone who loves golf is just trying to get the best experience they can with the time and money they have. We all go about it in different ways. For some it's playing as much golf as they can for the least money. For some it is playing less golf in the best places they can afford with the little time they have. Some people get to play golf all the time as a member of a great local club or clubs and travel to the worlds top courses. (If you are one of these people feel free to invite me to your club when I make my American tour this summer.) While that option is impossible for most, I can at least dream about it. Perhaps, when I retire! Is anybody here a good investment manager?

[Wayne_Kozun]

You know the area well: London Ontario has some of the best private and public courses in the country from a per capita standpoint.  The issue of choice that you raise is huge -- why pay to join the Hunt Club when I can play Tarandowah for 50 bucks?

Yes but if you live in central London you can play your morning round on a Saturday or Sunday at the Hunt (or Sunningdale) and be home by noon.  Tarandowah is a 30 minute drive each way.  That also makes it harder to sneak out of work early and play a late afternoon round.  These are some of the advantages of belonging to a club.  I am also guessing that private clubs in London are struggling since London has lost a lot of white collar jobs as Canada Trust and London Life were acquired by companies with head offices in other parts of Canada.  Certainly downtown London has deteriorated since I went to school there over twenty years ago.

[Jay Mickle]

  I lived in NJ for 35 years and was totally satisfied with playing any of the local courses. I liked some courses better than others but had little appreciation for what forged my judgements. Nine years ago I moved to Southern Pines/Pinehurst and found myself surrounded by courses that were championship quality courses by significant designers. I had never really considered what creativity and design elements went into what had for me been tees, fairways, rough, hazards and greens with a hole. As a fifteen handicapper I had enough errant shots that whatever the architect was trying to achieve was not easily discernible from deep in the pines.
  Here I was also exposed to players that could explain to me why a particular hole was well designed and another was not. As time progressed I joined two great courses and met more players who talked glowingly of various courses and their architects. About 6 years ago I was introduced to GCA and realized how naive I had been when I played courses like Pebble, Cypress, The Country Club etc. Since that introduction I have played from Palm Beach to San Diego to Bandon to Nantucket and Ireland in search of an appreciation of what I had missed in my earlier years.
  For me GCA became the driving force in my travels to see and marvel at the great variations in golf courses. I can now appreciate the game I love more fully. I am not trying become "a citizen of the golfing world". I am in my own way trying to justify the thousands of hours I have spent chasing a little white ball with a stick. My game has not much improved but I enjoy golf more now as a sort of chess match not just a physical endeavor. I still play a good number of the 2nd tier local clubs to support them and to provide variation while walking some 175 rounds at my home courses.
 

[Mark Bourgeois]

And now throw into the mix Golf Top 100 World course Adodyha Links, where "golf is more than just an experience." Because not only is a round of golf not enough any more, neither is "just an experience." 

[Paul Gray]

And now throw into the mix Golf Top 100 World course Adodyha Links, where "golf is more than just an experience." Because not only is a round of golf not enough any more, neither is "just an experience." 

"Where golf is more than just an experience."
 
I literally have no idea how to process that as a concept. 

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