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Brad Wilbur

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Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2015, 12:48:11 AM »
Probably the general golfing public knows that Augusta-like conditions are out of reach, but I would bet that almost all American members of this site had golfing acquaintances mention that they did not like the look of Pinehurst, when it held both Opens.  Green is still the expected standard. 


Nathan Gingrich

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Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2015, 06:16:41 AM »
The simple truth in all of these posts is that it comes down to personal preference. For example, I was handwatering the putting green of one of my first clubs and had two consecutive groups of golfers come off of the course the first saying to me speed the greens up and the second saying slow them down. The greens were rolling 13 that morning. Golfers in general tend to lack ownership of their bad shots and the blame tends to go on course conditions not the fact that they aren't as young as they used to be or don't play as much as they would like causing higher scores. Golf course superintendents are charged with creating the playing conditions their memberships/general public desire. The task of creating healthy and firm playing conditions is different from course to course. So be careful when comparing your club to the club down the road. Concepts typically lost on golfers like turf type and soil conditions will largely determine if even the most talented superintendent can create playing conditions that some how please all levels of golfers. Soft firm whatever in the end its a game and it sure beats a day of work have fun.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2015, 06:25:19 AM »
13!?! Really.  I once purchased my own stimp meter because I didn't believe what I was being told.  Fact is, Supers either don't know how to stimp a green or think lying to members will gain them favor.  Oh, or maybe they just think we are stupid.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2015, 08:01:42 AM »

13!?! Really.  I once purchased my own stimp meter because I didn't believe what I was being told.  Fact is, Supers either don't know how to stimp a green or think lying to members will gain them favor.  Oh, or maybe they just think we are stupid.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2015, 08:04:08 AM »
Stimp reading is the second biggest exaggeration in golf. Beaten only by descriptions of wind speed.

Ours are stimping at 11 today (8.5) and the wind is blowing 15-20mph (8-10)....


Adam Clayman

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Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2015, 08:07:28 AM »



Adam,

How do you think the players acquired that "game mind" ?

The influence of TV ?



It's not the TV's fault. It's the game mind of the players.

Pat, Max Behr observed the game minders long before television was invented. You'll need to watch a little closer. For the last 15 years the average tour stop has browned out their turf for the pro's tourneys. The general public ignores that. Why do they brown out their courses? To defend against the onslaught of 350 yard drives. The grass on a typical Sunday looks so terrible on TV, but, this hasn't swayed the public's uneducated desire to have the sport made easier for them with consistently soft turf. It also doesn't help that the majority of superintendents, like Nathan above, want to give the golfer what they think they want. I'd be surprised if 1/10th of the supers out there have even played enough golf to know what constitutes a perfect playing surface. Perfect to them is agronomic  related, not sporting related.
Nathan, I'm not picking on u, I just don't think it boils down to personal preference. If the customer is only out there to stroke their own ego, it should be the job of the super to repeatedly teach these selfish bastards humility. And if, after it rains, then their 7 wood from 140 yards can stop within inches of it's return to earth.

What's so wrong with a cycle? Day to day asking the golfer to use their experience to adapt to differing conditions? The reality is that the majority of customers are retirees who can't reach medium length holes in regulation due to the viscosity. On the days the turf is firm, they reach. So, why do supers assume the majority wants it lush and receptive everyday? They don't, only the low markers want that.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2015, 08:13:29 AM »
As a good friend of mine, who is a Head Green Keeper in England told me a few weeks ago, the Stimp meter is one of the worst thing that happened to golf course maintenance for greens staff.
His point being that it was designed purely for the staff to know that their greens were somewhat consistent - not to announce to the members/golf public to brag about how fast their greens are running.
I know that most days last year at the club where I play, and they now have a board with the green speeds recorded everyday, that the 'stimp' reading had 2 or 3 feet added to it everyday to impress the members. If we had a true reading then most other clubs in town were running daily at 16!!!!! Not happening :)
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2015, 08:24:52 AM »
Putting aside JK's usual defence of the status quo, how is this news? Surely Pat has been experiencing this all of his life, or at least in the last 40 years or so. Golfing masses, unless they decide to learn a little more, will automatically associate the England country garden with fine golf. Peter P covered this in an excellent thread not so long ago but most people ignored it.
 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2015, 08:38:02 AM »
I'm not defending the status quo, I'm tired of thread after thread stating how much smarter the members of this site are smarter than the general golfing public. I have yet to meet a golfer who shows up at an overwatered course and celebrates mud on their ball. Even the nationally ranked amateurs I occasionally play with love a firm course. Nothing strokes their fragile egos like more than one eagle putt a round. One one hand you guys bemoan the long ball while on the other claiming the average golfer doesn't love roll out.


People who bitch about everything aren't always stupid, sometimes thar just bitches. 

Phil Lipper

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Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2015, 10:50:12 AM »
I call this the "Augusta factor", I think most golfers in this country view Augusta as their perfect image of a golf course and expect top courses to look like that. Even Maidstone decided to add a sprinkler system, as much as they say this has to do recent droughts I truly believe its mostly the members desire for that "beautiful lush green look" that TV has told them a good golf course should have.
When I talk to friends who are raters everyone tells me that Yale in better condition would easily be in the top half of the GD100, but today its not even on the list.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2015, 11:53:06 AM »
JakaB,
 
There's a distinct difference between green, lush conditions and conditions where your ball has mud on it.
 
Extremes are rarely good.
 
The fellow I was speaking with objected to the lack of a monochromatic color throughout the golf course.
 
To him, consistent green defined the quality of the playing conditions, rather than the surfaces themselves.
 
Having played a fair amount of golf over the years and having played this same course a week or so earlier, I found the playing conditions to be superb.
 
He, on the other hand prefered soft conditions, conditions where your ball stayed where it landed on the green.
 
The greens at this course were F&F, hence, only well struck shots were likely to remain close to the point of impact.
 
To address the general golfing IQ of participants on this site, I'd say it was well above average.  That's not an elitist position, it's a function of knowledge, of golfers who want to learn more about golf, design and maintenance.
 
As to the stimpmeter, many years ago, I too purchased several stimps because I was being told that the speed of the greens was high, when in truth, it wasn't.
 
The value of a stimp is not in the speed of the greens, rather it's in the consistency of the greens.

Andrew Hardy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2015, 04:16:58 PM »
Same names, same anti-Super rhetoric. We all take our orders from someone

Lester George

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Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2015, 04:33:09 PM »
I had a similar experience at this years State Open of Virginia which is in its second year at Ballyhack Golf Club, known for being firm and fast.  I ask a professional how he played and he said he played well, then he "the course is in much better condition this year".  I knew that not to be true and asked, "in what way".  He said it was "softer".  He went on to say it played much like other tournament courses "not much roll, and not much bounce". 

We had an inch and a half or rain three days prior (which made it greener) But the greens were the same speed as last year.

I found that annoyingly interesting. 

Lester

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2015, 05:36:56 PM »
I continue to be involved with the Greens committee at my club and to co-chair the Chicago District's agronomy efforts.  Pat's observations are in no ways unique.  Many players prefer courses that are green even at the cost of firmness.  Even more in our area cherish trees regardless of whether they hurt turf quality or inhibit strategy.  That is an observable fact in my experience.  Of course it is a matter of taste.  But the art of criticism is based on the assumption that not all opinions (or tastes) have equal value.  If one is evaluating a golf course for its intended purpose, as a place to play the game, there can be little argument that firm and fast conditions make for a better game regardless of one's skill level.  If one is out for a pleasant walk in a garden, the issue is much more debatable.  So while I concur that it is a matter of taste, I reject the notion that those who don't understand the interaction between conditioning and the game should be given the same respect as those who do.  However, I also recognize that members and owners run golf facilities and ultimately their superintendents answer to them .  So sometimes there is little they can do.  Over the past several years we have come a long way in educating our members to appreciate the benefits of firmer surfaces.  There remain a significant group of holdouts on the tree issue and it gets a little dicey when things start to brown out (no issue this year with all the rain).  But its a continuing process and some will never learn.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2015, 07:25:37 PM »
I just finished up a three day member/guest on a course that this site would say needs tree removal to expose the architecture. Upon review, each of my top ten most exciting moments involved either hitting around, under, or through a tree. Funny enough, the main concerns involving the trees was the lack of pristine grass underneath. I don't get the problem. Trees are fun as hell.

Jeff Bergeron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2015, 09:34:48 PM »
Probably the general golfing public knows that Augusta-like conditions are out of reach, but I would bet that almost all American members of this site had golfing acquaintances mention that they did not like the look of Pinehurst, when it held both Opens.  Green is still the expected standard.



Let's start with your boy, Trump.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2015, 12:14:18 AM »
Jeff,
 
It's not just about the look, it's about how that look impacts play.
 
It's about the inherent quality of the playing surfaces brought about by the look, and the objection to firm and fast conditions because the course isn't solid green.

Rick Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2015, 04:36:24 AM »
This is a really interesting thread. The bottom line is that most american golfers dislike the firm fast conditions we extoll as ideal on this site. I loved the look of pinehurst in the open and liked the look of Chambers Bay even more. My father a senior 15 handicap country club member who plays 3 times a week and watches golf on TV constantly hated the look of both of them. I really think he is an accurate representation of the average american golfer. To him, 1. It looks bad and he did mention Augusta and even the nice green grass of his own club. 2. The average golfer does not need or want a course to be more difficult and firm and fast is definitely more difficult. 3. Firm fast conditions lead to ground game kicks and bounces and this is "unfair" in the minds of both the average player and the tour pro and both complained a lot about Chambers Bay if I remember correctly.

Nathan Gingrich

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Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2015, 06:00:48 AM »
It also doesn't help that the majority of superintendents, like Nathan above, want to give the golfer what they think they want. I'd be surprised if 1/10th of the supers out there have even played enough golf to know what constitutes a perfect playing surface. Perfect to them is agronomic  related, not sporting related.[/size]Nathan, I'm not picking on u, I just don't think it boils down to personal preference. If the customer is only out there to stroke their own ego, it should be the job of the super to repeatedly teach these selfish bastards humility. And if, after it rains, then their 7 wood from 140 yards can stop within inches of it's return to earth.


Adam,


Superintendents or golf course employees that set out to teach the members a "lesson" of any kind will be looking for a job shortly. I personally have tried for years to educate my members on the value of brown and tight conditions where their ball rolls out. I took this to the course last year with occasional dry spots in fairways low heights of cut every where and firm fast greens. I even had the USGA write a report about the topic.  My approval rating went from 97% to 93% and the turf was just as healthy and solid as it was prior.I am a 5 handicap I like tight and fast conditions but not everyone does.
[/color]

Rick Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2015, 08:20:39 AM »
Here is another interesting thing concerning this topic. In China this is even worse. Here people pay big money, usually over $100 US to play golf anywhere and the expectation is that everything will be perfectly green and the greens will big very green and very fast. Many also like thick nasty rough. I played the Dunes at Shenzou Peninsula in Hainan and it was an all sand course right on the Ocean with dunes and wildly undulating fairways. It was so green and well watered that the ball stopped within  a few feet of landing in the fairway and the greens held approaches even with long irons. It robbed the course of all the links character of the intended design. Then I played a more inland RTJ Junior course that had faster fairways with slight brown patches that still provided perfect lies in the highest parts of the fairways. The round we much more interesting and fun. Upon returning to the clubhouse I was charged less than the quoted price (in China you pay before leaving) because the fairways were " not in good condition." What is interesting is that the Dunes would have been the best course I have played in China had the conditions been firm and fast. Instead, the conditions made the lesser of the courses from a design standpoint more fun to play.

Tim Gavrich

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Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2015, 09:29:44 AM »
I wonder the extent to which, at least at the private club level, the prevailing culture is one where the members regard the club as a status symbol more than just a place to relax and have a good time with friends and family.

The members who have the gumption to get on a Superintendent's case because the otherwise perfect greens are running at 11 on the Stimpmeter rather than 13 are probably the same ones who tell non-members at cocktail parties, "Yeah, the greens at [my home club] are like glass right now. Just perfect. Thirteen-plus!" whether it's true or not.

My sense is that there are certain clubs whose steering committees are more full of these kinds of dudes than others. And to arc back to Peter P.'s thesis, which Paul mentioned, they are also the kind of dudes who think their ideal is of a great golf experience when it's really more about a country garden walk than a round of golf.

Pat, it seems like the guy complaining about the course to you is a member of one of those ego-first-golf-second clubs, and that the host of the outing is of the reverse sort.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Paul Gray

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Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2015, 06:51:03 PM »
I'm not defending the status quo, I'm tired of thread after thread stating how much smarter the members of this site are smarter than the general golfing public. I have yet to meet a golfer who shows up at an overwatered course and celebrates mud on their ball. Even the nationally ranked amateurs I occasionally play with love a firm course. Nothing strokes their fragile egos like more than one eagle putt a round. One one hand you guys bemoan the long ball while on the other claiming the average golfer doesn't love roll out.


People who bitch about everything aren't always stupid, sometimes thar just bitches.


John,


I'm afraid all you ever do is defend the status quo. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit with your self image but endlessly reiterating your support for what the vast majority of country club members recognise as quality isn't exactly the behaviour of a radical individual.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Peter Pallotta

Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2015, 08:07:02 AM »
Paul - There's a shabby-chic quality to it, though, don't you think?

I like reading the many posts from people who know better than me (e.g. from the superintendent side, or Shelly from the committee side, or Pat from the good player's side).  But it does seem that there is an 'evangelist' element to some of our discussions here - a kind of "why are they so blind?!" Well, I'd suggest that "they" are not blind. In fact, they see things very clearly, and what they see is this: that for many many golfers, it is simply harder to play the game off tight turf, and golf is simply more challenging (and dare I say, less fun) in fast and firm conditions, when the ball rolls and rolls and they feel they have even less control of it than usual. And for most of these folks, they don't want to make the game any harder than it already is, which is why their drivers are the size of toasters and their putters the length of brooms. Now, yes, I tend to believe - with Adam and Max Behr -- that there is this "game mind" of man -- but saying so seems to have done little good for "them" or "us" or the "game".  Folks have been talking in one way or another about "the carnal mind"  of man for thousands of years too, but that carnal mind hasn't lessened its hold one bit. All of which is to say, as I did earlier, maybe it is best to meet people where they are, without judgement and without superiority. "They" don't want the extra challenge, "we" do -- so let's see how we can have a real conversation about it with our agendas and beliefs and needs out in the open and try to find something that works for all.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 08:09:08 AM by PPallotta »

Rick Emerson

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Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2015, 08:28:15 AM »
In fact, they see things very clearly, and what they see is this: that for many many golfers, it is simply harder to play the game off tight turf, and golf is simply more challenging (and dare I say, less fun) in fast and firm conditions, when the ball rolls and rolls and they feel they have even less control of it than usual. And for most of these folks, they don't want to make the game any harder than it already is,
This is exactly what I was getting at when I described how my Dad feels. Most people want a chance to shoot a good score and do not play well enough to shoot anywhere near their handicap on a firm, fast course with tight lies. They want to have a good time not get beat up. I however am a glutton for punishment and I like the creativity that firm fast and tight provides. I may hit more shots but they are also more memorable and I don't get my worth from my handicap anymore. The days of +2 went the way of the dodo after I got my first real job.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 08:31:59 AM by Rick Emerson »

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I had an interesting conversation today
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2015, 10:32:01 AM »
Peter, Rick et al,
 
Since we're doing dad comparisons, I thought I'd introduce my old man to the discussion.......
 
My dad is a 69 year old man with a dodgy knee, a knackered shoulder, a golf 'swipe' which would leave you none too impressed and an inability to remove any golf ball from any amount of sand. He plays the game about six times a year. He's a working class lad with no education and wouldn't himself claim to be an intellectual. You get the picture.
 
What has always impressed me though, despite all these apparent shortcomings in his capacity to 'get it,' is just how much he actually does like traditional golf courses. I am my father's son, clearly. For him, and this can be similarly evidenced any day you choose to pay a visit to my own club when conditions are firm and the female octagenarians are out in force , the quick fairways are anything but a problem. When you can only duff the ball 100 yards all that roll is a god send, as is the luxury of taking the putter out from 60 yards short of the dance floor.
 
But I got to asking myself why he's so appreciative of a links or dry heathland. Certainly he can't really articulate it. Is it really as simple as being able to hit the ball further because it's dry? And then it struck me.....and then I reconsidered and wondered if perhaps I'd created a narrative which suited me. I asked him about it and concluded that I hadn't crafted a story to fit my world view, although I can't honestly claim to have applied a scientific control to my investigation. Anyway, it occurred to me that my dad, a man for whom 'working class lad does good and demonstrates his aspirational social climbing by joining a water fountain park,' should be part of the programme, a man for whom voting for Margaret Thatcher was more a social statement than a political conviction, didn't get the memo telling him that lush and green was all part of the good life. No one told him that 'American style golf course in the heart of Hampshire' was meant for him, to be worn as a badge of honour to mark his rise up the social order. For him a pond doesn't mean classy, it means danger. And my dad doesn't feel the urge to demonstrate his ability to thin the ball into every hazard he sees, nor does he feel the need to demonstrate that he can miss ever 20 yard wide fairway he walks across before searching through thick rough for a golf ball he's never going to find. And he's a man more immune than most to advertising anyway. It has nothing to do with smarts and everything to do with apathy and stubborness. So it seems to me that this neanderthal of golf course architecture is better placed than any of us here to form an unbiased opinion. And what he likes, much as was true of golfers one hundred years ago before anyone told them what to think, is a dry course which he can basically run the ball across and have fun with contours. Show me a golfer who claims to dislike mini-golf and I'll introduce you to a liar. Windmills or no windmills, in the end, it's all really just about the ladies putting course at TOC.
 
It's true that the desire to massage an ego on a golf course which appears far harder than it actually is is a function of carnal man. We are hunters and we need to feel a sense of defeating the natural world. What isn't true however is that this drive is so innately strong that we can't ever distance ourselves from it when involved in a recreational pursuit. We are nurture as much as nature. That isn't to say that we should look down on anyone who sees the golf course as an entity to be conquered; congratulating oneself for taming the 7,000 yard green beast is a matter for the individual. The fact that I couldn't care less is neither here nor there. It does however follow that we can only truly have a broad perspective on the subject of golf course architecture if we stop viewing the course as prey.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 06:54:05 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

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