[David_Tepper]

"I don't know which, if any, of the greens/holes on the Dunes Course were more or less Raynor originals, but it really bothers me to see a valuable work of art blown up and completely redone with bulldozers. How would we feel if a museum curator scraped the paint off a Monet, created a new painting in a similar but more modern style on the same canvas, and called it a "sympathetic restoration"? If you don't like that, then you shouldn't like this either."

Anthony F. -

If there is one thing that should be clear from this thread is that the membership of MPCC decided they had no interest in a restoration (sympathetic otherwise) of the Raynor-designed Dunes Course. At least one GCA presented MPCC with a plan to restore/recreate the Rayner aspects of the course and MPCC declined to hire him.

MPCC wanted a new and different course. The Fazio group was hired to give them that.

DT

[Kalen Braley]

When I read about things like this, I wonder if golf courses could ever be eligible to be nominated as historic landmarks to at least make it more difficult for something like this to occur.
 
Could you imagine if someone like Donald Trump got his hands on something like Pine Valley, and had Fazio plow it under and build his own course.  Makes you think there outta be some kind of law or designation to prevent stuff like that....
 
Just throwing it out there...

[Pat Burke]

Will be interesting to see if we look back on the good ol days of Rees' work there

[Adam Clayman]

Here's Point Joe. Formerly flat

[Joel_Stewart]

Could you imagine if someone like Donald Trump got his hands on something like Pine Valley, and had Fazio plow it under and build his own course.  Makes you think there outta be some kind of law or designation to prevent stuff like that....
 
Just throwing it out there...

You would think the ASGCA would step up but they don't.


Fazio would gladly bulldoze Pine Valley, Augusta, Riviera, Bel-Air, Merion, Oak Hill or Oakmont.  Oops he's already screwed with those courses to satisfy his own ego. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,


How has Fazio screwed with Pine Valley ?

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel,


How has Fazio screwed with Pine Valley ?

Sterilized the bunkers, over conditioned the fairways, failed to address the over growth of trees and added useless tees on holes such as the 4th and 18th.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,


How has Fazio screwed with Pine Valley ?

Sterilized the bunkers,
 
How so ?
I play there every year and don't see evidence of systemic sterilization.
 
over conditioned the fairways,
 
Fazio has NOTHING to do with the condition of the fairways
 
failed to address the over growth of trees
 
The failure to address the over growth of trees occured long before Fazio came to PV.  There has been some progress, but, I'd have to agree with you that it's been very gradual, too gradual.
 
and added useless tees on holes such as the 4th and 18th.

The tees added on # 4, # 7, # 14, # 15, # 16 and # 18 are due to the fact that PV hosted the Walker Cup and hosts an annual tournament which includes the best amateurs in the country, and, the Philadelphia/GAP Open which includes top amateurs and Pros, hence the need for extra length.
 
However, the Members tees remain more than an adequate challenge for 95+% of the members and guests.
 
I don't think you can be critical of Fazio when it comes to PV.
 
With regard to MPCC, the jury will remain out until the final product is revealed.
 
But, remember, this is what the members wanted.

[Adam Lawrence]

Could you imagine if someone like Donald Trump got his hands on something like Pine Valley, and had Fazio plow it under and build his own course.  Makes you think there outta be some kind of law or designation to prevent stuff like that....
 
Just throwing it out there...

You would think the ASGCA would step up but they don't.

Why would you think that? I don't see how it's within the ASGCA's remt

[Joel_Stewart]

The ASGCA has no power or influence which has been a problem for years.  It's a society.  The only thing they care about is you don't try and steal a commission away from another architect and/or speak bad about another architects work.


The AIA has some backbone and fairly clear ethical standards. 


As for as restorations, it states:


"Accurately depicting the form, materials, features, and character of a property as it appeared at a particular period of time. Restoration retains as much of the historic period fabric as possible."


Tom Fazio doesn't care about Mackenzie, George Thomas or Seth Raynor.  All he cares about is his designs and his look and influence. 


You have to remember that Fazio wasn't into restorations until 15 or 20 years ago when his jealousy at Rees Jones being called the "Open Doctor" came around enraged him.  Fazio doesn't work or consult on small restorations.  He only works on high profile courses with large budgets.

[Adam Lawrence]

Then why would you expect ASGCA to 'step up'?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

Anyone who has played the "short" course at Pine Valley has to be impressed with the quality of Fazio's work on that project.

It shows, that given the proper guidance/directive, that he's capable of producing a quality product.

I think the disconnect arises when the client isn't sure what they want and cede that responsibility over to him.

Given a free hand, I would think that he's going to produce "his" style of golf course.

Apparently, the members at MPCC were dissatisfied with the Rees Jones product,, which I thought was terrific, but perhaps in need of some minor tweaking, especially on the opening holes which the members felt were repetitive.

As Father Time marches further and further away from opening day, clubs tend to forget their roots/pedigree.

I'm anxious to see the finished product.

Another question is:  how long before the next renovation ?

[Kalen Braley]

"Another question is:  how long before the next renovation ?"
 
Pat that's a good point, Fazio would be well to remember that what comes around, goes around.
 
It could be that architects who do "best effort" restorations are remembered better in the annals of time, than those who just wanted to bull doze and start over....and years from now when the current crop of respectful archies are all ODGs, their works will be treated better and not bull dozed.  Karma can be a bitch!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,


While I agree 100 % with you, it's not the architect who's the driving force behind altering an existing course, it's the club itself.


Tom MacWood felt that clubs should act as museum curators act in terms of protecting their asset.


The difference may be that the consensus has determined that that which is in the possession of the museum is worthy of preserving, whereas "memberships" are more fickle and prone to following fads/trends.


Another factor may be that the item in the museum is static and not physically interactive.


Most, don't think that the Mona Lisa or Venus De Milo should be altered, but almost every golfer I know would alter some feature on a golf course.


Because a golf course is a field of play........ Can it not be improved ?


The subjective nature of that question leads to alterations, some for the better, most for the worst.


That's my story and I'm sticking to it

[Kalen Braley]

Karen,


While I agree 100 % with you, it's not the architect who's the driving force behind altering an existing course, it's the club itself.


Tom MacWood felt that clubs should act as museum curators act in terms of protecting their asset.


The difference may be that the consensus has determined that that which is in the possession of the museum is worthy of preserving, whereas "memberships" are more fickle and prone to following fads/trends.


Another factor may be that the item in the museum is static and not physically interactive.


Most, don't think that the Mona Lisa or Venus De Milo should be altered, but almost every golfer I know would alter some feature on a golf course.


Because a golf course is a field of play........ Can it not be improved ?


The subjective nature of that question leads to alterations, some for the better, most for the worst.


That's my story and I'm sticking to it 😜

Shockingly Pat, your last post made sense and I must agree with it in principle!!
 
However, one would always hope that for special places, and MPCC is certainly one of them, that the "museum curators" would be more vocal and insistent on using restraint when considering blowing up a course like that.
 
Could you imagine some ambitious young sweet talking architect blowing up your beloved NGLA, leveling it off, and putting containment mounding and amoeba shaped bunkers in?  It would be blasphemy of the highest sort!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,
 
I think, as memberships get further and further from opening day, that they become less invested in the original work.
 
And, in today's world of disposables (razors, pens, pencils, marriages, etc., etc.), the original design, that which made the course distinctive, becomes disposable.
 
Ross and Macdonald tinkered with individual holes for decades after the original unveiling, but, they retained their design principles, their style, they didn't plow their courses under and start all over again, so, I can accept "tinkering" from a sympathetic perspective.
 
In watching "Pawn Stars" it's interesting how the value of these artifacts increases when they're in their original form and how the value decreases when they've been altered.
 
Too bad that golf courses aren't valued in the same way.

[Joel_Stewart]

Then why would you expect ASGCA to 'step up'?

Because they advertise themselves as some type of governing body with strict standards and admissions.


Pat:


I've played the short course at Pine Valley and its good.  There are a few Fazio courses I enjoy but that's off the subject.  Furthermore, if you don't think Fazio as a member of the board and green committee at PV is involved in conditioning then I would venture to say you're wrong. 


To the main point, Fazio only started restoration work 10 or 15 years ago to counter Rees and his work has been terrible in terms of "accurately depicting the form, materials, features, and character of a property as it appeared at a particular period of time. Restoration retains as much of the historic period fabric as possible."
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[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,


I believe that Fazio's impact on conditioning/maintenance at PV is less than minimal.


I'm certainly not a fan of his body of work, but to blame him for implementing decisions made by the membership seems unfair.


Oak Hill and Oakland Hills might have been the start of controversial alterations for iconic clubs.


In both cases the clubs were the party responsible for wanting to change their course.
They and they alone decided that they wanted to entertain changes to their course and they and they alone invited an architect into their midst for the sole purpose of acting as the instrument of their desires.


Your argument, and the argument of many, is their choice of the architect.


But that's the secondary choice.   
The primary, critical and flawed choice was the decision to alter the golf course in the first place.

[David_Tepper]

Most recent video from Jackson-Kahn on their work at MPCC Dunes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DthLWe_r0M

[Joel_Stewart]

What a tremendous waste of money in making this video?


The placement of those fully grown cypress trees with cranes also shows why Fazio is easily able to spend $11 million on rebuilding an existing golf course. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

What a tremendous waste of money in making this video?


The placement of those fully grown cypress trees with cranes also shows why Fazio is easily able to spend $11 million on rebuilding an existing golf course.

 Bet the video just cost Jackson/Kahn "time." They make them for many of the courses they're involved with. A lot of Superintendents are doing it, also. Pretty impressive to me and looks like the place will be spectacular.
  Not sure why you think $11m is outrageous? Because it's Fazio? Maybe. Several clubs in FL doing $9m+ with much lesser known architects and I would say that anything in California, Monterey especially, is more expensive.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here's Point Joe. Formerly flat

Adam, are you sure that the sand pictured below isn't just being stockpiled for sand capping ?  ?  ?

You are aware that a major facet of this project is sand capping, aren't you ?

[Jaeger Kovich]

Pat, based on what it looked like in the video, the sand cap material has a much more yellow color to it. The sand they were spreading in the one waste/sandscape area followed by the drawing was much whiter. Also, based on the shape and horizon of it, it doesn't look like a stock pile.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaeger,
 
What do I know ?
 
I was only at MPCC weeks ago. 
 
A question to be asked is why would you want to block the wind and the golfer's views of the hazard by creating large mounds ?


Pat, based on what it looked like in the video, the sand cap material has a much more yellow color to it. The sand they were spreading in the one waste/sandscape area followed by the drawing was much whiter. Also, based on the shape and horizon of it, it doesn't look like a stock pile.

[Joel_Stewart]

What a tremendous waste of money in making this video?


The placement of those fully grown cypress trees with cranes also shows why Fazio is easily able to spend $11 million on rebuilding an existing golf course.

 Bet the video just cost Jackson/Kahn "time." They make them for many of the courses they're involved with. A lot of Superintendents are doing it, also. Pretty impressive to me and looks like the place will be spectacular.
  Not sure why you think $11m is outrageous? Because it's Fazio? Maybe. Several clubs in FL doing $9m+ with much lesser known architects and I would say that anything in California, Monterey especially, is more expensive.

I made an error.  The budget is not $11 million, I'm told its $20 million.

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