Cypress Point is so much more than the picturesque 16th hole

[Patrick_Mucci]

it's a tightly woven collection of 18 great holes.


Yes, 18 great holes.


Let us not also forget that during the Golden Age, architects rarely focused on the 18th hole as most matches were over before the competitors reached the 18th tee.


Playing CPC, it becomes clear that the golf course is the product of genius, study and unique topography.


What continues to impress me is how AM introduced or rather, melded the bunkering into the terrain.


No two holes are alike and there are multiple strategies presented on each hole.


While the fairways are very, very generous, AM created narrow locations in the fairway that have to be reached if the golfer wants to maximize their chances for hitting the green/s in regulation.


Angles become critical and the visual deception and visual challenges that AM created are challenging, yet fun to meet.


How much do you dare cut off on # 2 and # 8


Do you hit driver or lay up on # 9 and # 16, and perhaps # 17


Many approach shots beg the same question.


CPC is one of those courses that I'd want to play every day.


There are no weak holes.


18 is not a weak hole, it's one of the few "demand" par 4's on the golf course.


You must reach the DZ beyond the last tree on the right.
You must pass AM's playing test.


Those that don't............ Complain.


MacKenzie's use of the high dune incorporating #'s 7,8, and 9 is pure genius.


MacKenzie's abbreviated green to tee walks are also a tribute to his creative genius.


More on CPC later.

[Rob Marshall]

I'm pretty sure I will never play Cypress.  I'm still pissed at myself that I didn't walk out to the 15th and 16th when I was there. I found out later that one the scenic stops I was at on 17 mile drive was right next to the path that takes you the 15th tee. Getting arrested for trespassing would have been worth seeing those holes in person.  I've seen a picture of the plaque on the 17th tee. Something about soaking it all in and how lucky you are to be standing on that tee box....

[Keith OHalloran]

Pat,
I do not necessarily agree with you regarding 18, but I agree with everything else. Cypress Point is amazing and a whole lot more than just 15 and 16.

[Ian Mackenzie]

it's a tightly woven collection of 18 great holes.


Yes, 18 great holes.


Let us not also forget that during the Golden Age, architects rarely focused on the 18th hole as most matches were over before the competitors reached the 18th tee.


Playing CPC, it becomes clear that the golf course is the product of genius, study and unique topography.


What continues to impress me is how AM introduced or rather, melded the bunkering into the terrain.


No two holes are alike and there are multiple strategies presented on each hole.


While the fairways are very, very generous, AM created narrow locations in the fairway that have to be reached if the golfer wants to maximize their chances for hitting the green/s in regulation.


Angles become critical and the visual deception and visual challenges that AM created are challenging, yet fun to meet.


How much do you dare cut off on # 2 and # 8


Do you hit driver or lay up on # 9 and # 16, and perhaps # 17


Many approach shots beg the same question.


CPC is one of those courses that I'd want to play every day.


There are no weak holes.


18 is not a weak hole, it's one of the few "demand" par 4's on the golf course.


You must reach the DZ beyond the last tree on the right.
You must pass AM's playing test.


Those that don't............ Complain.


MacKenzie's use of the high dune incorporating #'s 7,8, and 9 is pure genius.


MacKenzie's abbreviated green to tee walks are also a tribute to his creative genius.


More on CPC later.

Thank you, Captain Obvious...!!...:-)
Your effusive praise confirms why CPC has been a "Global top 5" course for decades.


IMO, the 18th at CPC is a severe let down for the follwing reasons:


1. At 343 yards, it is basically a "double dog-leg". Not enough real estate to pull that off.
2. The fairway bunkers are "double hazards" which is a massive architectural - or maintenance -  flaw. When your tee shot lands in the bunkers, you have HUGE cypress trees impeding your line of recovery. (Bunker short and right, and bunker on right as hole finally straightens out. Bunker on left side of fairway is impeded by a huge tree hanging into fiarway about 50 yards short and left of green.)
3. The optimal tee shot is played OVER the trees or a player MUST play a draw around the trees with a 5 iron or 5 wood. If you choose to defend this, Pat, then it would certainly be in direct contrast to your issue with #18 tree at PB.


It's as if AM chose to make 15, 16 and 17 so special that he gave in on 18 and ran out of real estate to make a closing hole that is commensurate with the rest of the playing experience.


That hole needs a chain saw and reminds me of holes at Olympic Lake before they were smart enough to cut down 1000 trees.

[Adam Clayman]

Let down? That implies expectations. I'd agree standing on the tee for the first time it's a head scratch-er, but, The green alone, makes this closer better than 90% of holes built pot WWII. The trees are camouflage.

Pat is correct on 99% of this thread. 

[Mike Hendren]

I have Cypress Point Club in my top ten - but I'm thinking that's only because I'm supposed to.  Its aura has diminished in the ten years since I played it given what I've subsequently been able to experience.  Wish I could articulate why.  Not to beat a dead horse but if it was a $55 public and Lawsonia was an inaccessible private, I might have this something close to a push.
 
I know - I've lost my mind.  Please indulge me.
 
Bogey

[Bill_McBride]

I wonder what the 18th fairway looked like in 1929.  Were those big trees in the fairway?


Pat, how did you play the 9th?    That is such an uncomfortable decision.  In my two plays, I have hooked a driver into the sand with the pin down below, and laid up and hit a good wedge and made par with the pin on top.   The pin location has a lot of variety and impact on how you play your tee shot. 

[Bryan Drennon]

This discussion reminded me of a topic from 5 years ago, one of my favorites:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43897.0.html.









I spent a couple nights above the clubhouse a few years back and walked that area one afternoon. I'm sure many people have had a similar idea, although I doubt there will ever be a greens committee or president there that will even attempt something so grand (or sacrilegious).

[Jason Topp]

Is the 17th a good hole?  From the pictures it appears extremely awkward.

[MClutterbuck]

16 and 17 are great holes, but I believe 1-15 to be as good as 16-17 or better. It seems to me AM had more flexibility 1 through 15 to create and was more constrained on 16-17 and gave us what nature allowed. CPC is the best course I have played, even though 18 to me is not a good hole and is out of character with the rest.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I wonder what the 18th fairway looked like in 1929.  Were those big trees in the fairway?

Good question

Pat, how did you play the 9th?    That is such an uncomfortable decision.  In my two plays, I have hooked a driver into the sand with the pin down below, and laid up and hit a good wedge and made par with the pin on top.   The pin location has a lot of variety and impact on how you play your tee shot.


Very uncomfortable.

I walked onto the tee with a driver as I had been driving the ball well, albeit with a slight, uninvited fade.

The hole was cut far left

I watched as one fellow hit an iron, another drove it far right, then he drove a provisional far left, with the other fellow driving it in the fairway.

I stood there for a while trying to decide if I should take an iron or hit my driver.  I finally decided to hit my driver and drove it in the fairway about 20 yards short of the green, leaving me a cute little shot over the huge bunker from an uphill lie.

I choked down on my L-Wedge too much and didn't clear the bunker.  I then hit a very good bunker shot to 4 feet but was annoyed that I didn't have a birdie putt after that drive.

That tee shot is especially intimidating because you've had nothing but very wide fairways for the first 8 holes and now you have to thread the eye of the needle.

A really great short hole that can put a big number on your score card.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the 17th a good hole?  From the pictures it appears extremely awkward.


No, it's a VERY good hole with the wind playing a significant role in the play of the hole.

One of the beauties of the hole is that the closer you go to the Pacific, the better the angle of attack into the green

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

What year was the top aerial taken as there are no bunkers at the right corner of the dogleg on 18.

NO ONE is going to alter any hole MacKenzie designed.

Although, I do believe that elevating the18th tee a few feet would provide the golfer with a view of the DZ

This discussion reminded me of a topic from 5 years ago, one of my favorites:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43897.0.html.









I spent a couple nights above the clubhouse a few years back and walked that area one afternoon. I'm sure many people have had a similar idea, although I doubt there will ever be a greens committee or president there that will even attempt something so grand (or sacrilegious).

[Patrick_Mucci]

MClutterbuck,

How is # 18 out of character with# 14 ?

How does the approach shot differ from any of the other holes ?



16 and 17 are great holes, but I believe 1-15 to be as good as 16-17 or better. It seems to me AM had more flexibility 1 through 15 to create and was more constrained on 16-17 and gave us what nature allowed. CPC is the best course I have played, even though 18 to me is not a good hole and is out of character with the rest.

[BCowan]

Bryan,

    Then new 18th hole looks really cool with the strategic options off the tee.  What I don't understand is if you take the aggressive line over the bunker you seem to get rewarded with a worse angle into the green.  The green side bunkers would seem more appropriately placed right of the green imo.  I have never played CPC for the record.  I agree with Pat that I doubt they would ever change it.  Thanks for posting

[MClutterbuck]

MClutterbuck,

How is # 18 out of character with# 14 ?

How does the approach shot differ from any of the other holes ?



16 and 17 are great holes, but I believe 1-15 to be as good as 16-17 or better. It seems to me AM had more flexibility 1 through 15 to create and was more constrained on 16-17 and gave us what nature allowed. CPC is the best course I have played, even though 18 to me is not a good hole and is out of character with the rest.

Pat, my feeling is 18 is a lot more constrained and narrow on the drive specially. It is less strategic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MClutterbuck,

How is # 18 out of character with# 14 ?

How does the approach shot differ from any of the other holes ?



16 and 17 are great holes, but I believe 1-15 to be as good as 16-17 or better. It seems to me AM had more flexibility 1 through 15 to create and was more constrained on 16-17 and gave us what nature allowed. CPC is the best course I have played, even though 18 to me is not a good hole and is out of character with the rest.

Is it narrower and more constrained than # 9 ?

Pat, my feeling is 18 is a lot more constrained and narrow on the drive specially. It is less strategic.

[MClutterbuck]

MClutterbuck,

How is # 18 out of character with# 14 ?

How does the approach shot differ from any of the other holes ?



16 and 17 are great holes, but I believe 1-15 to be as good as 16-17 or better. It seems to me AM had more flexibility 1 through 15 to create and was more constrained on 16-17 and gave us what nature allowed. CPC is the best course I have played, even though 18 to me is not a good hole and is out of character with the rest.

Is it narrower and more constrained than # 9 ?

Pat, my feeling is 18 is a lot more constrained and narrow on the drive specially. It is less strategic.

My feeling is it was. I did not measure. I was comfortable in every hole off the tee except for 16 and 18. This was my experience, which of course is limited. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was also uncomfortable standing on the tee.
 
Once in the DZ, the approach shot fits perfectly with the rest of the golf course.
 
I think the hole would be more "in character" if the DZ was visible and if you didn't have to drive into/over a tree.
 
As Kalen inquired, I wonder how that hole looked from the tee in 1929

[Kalen Braley]

My biggest issue with #18 was that it was out of character with the rest of the course in that its a "hit it straight or else" kinda deal as opposed to the other holes where options are-a-plenty.

[Bryan Drennon]

PM,


I'm not sure what year that pic was taken but it was 2010 or earlier. Another bunker that's missing in the pic is the one near the trees in the middle of the fairway on 17. I remember that one b/c I had trouble escaping it my first go around. You 100% correct. No one will ever touch the 18th (although I love the look of that rendition). If you've ever wandered out in that area, it's almost amazing he didn't do it that way. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he originally wanted to put the tee out on that rock outcropping. I have no clue.

Bryan,

What year was the top aerial taken as there are no bunkers at the right corner of the dogleg on 18.

NO ONE is going to alter any hole MacKenzie designed.

Although, I do believe that elevating the18th tee a few feet would provide the golfer with a view of the DZ

This discussion reminded me of a topic from 5 years ago, one of my favorites:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43897.0.html.









I spent a couple nights above the clubhouse a few years back and walked that area one afternoon. I'm sure many people have had a similar idea, although I doubt there will ever be a greens committee or president there that will even attempt something so grand (or sacrilegious).

[Bryan Drennon]

BC,
Although it's not my design, my recollection is that the area between the clubhouse and the new green is pretty steeply pitched. I'm assuming the designer is "rewarding" an aggressive line down the left side with an iron shot that can be chased in from the right side of the green without having to carry a bunker. It may be that the hillside just right of the green is steep enough to chase a ball onto the putting surface (somewhat like the hill short and right of the green on 11 at ANGC). If you take the right route off the tee, the iron shot has carry that bunker on the right. The hill right of the green would also seem to be less help the further right you're coming from (also like #11). Of course none of this applies to tour players that would be hitting driver wedge. That's just my interpretation. I do get where you're coming from but you would have to ask the designer what he was thinking. They're never gonna change it but it's worth discussing since they're are so many different opinions on it.

Bryan,

    Then new 18th hole looks really cool with the strategic options off the tee.  What I don't understand is if you take the aggressive line over the bunker you seem to get rewarded with a worse angle into the green.  The green side bunkers would seem more appropriately placed right of the green imo.  I have never played CPC for the record.  I agree with Pat that I doubt they would ever change it.  Thanks for posting

[Jim Nugent]

I've heard the suggestion that CPC follows Raynor's routing.  If that can ever be shown true, shouldn't Raynor get co-credit (at least) for designing the course? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

You're correct, the area behind the clubhouse is very steeply sloped, rendering the proposed revision of # 18 valid only in a two dimensional world.

But, with some creativity, it might work, like the banked slope on # 6.

[Mike Hendren]

it's a tightly woven collection of 18 great holes.

Yes, 18 great holes.

I can't help but wonder is The Good Doctor sacrificed 17 and 18 at the altar of 15 and 16.  Take a good look at the 17th fairway and ask yourself what percentage of the driving zone leaves one totally blocked on the approach.  Mackenzie even doubled down with bunkers in the trees - or is it trees in the bunker.
 
Patrick, don't bother defending 17 and 18.  But I challenge you to support your contention that 7, 10 and 14 are great.  That's giving a couple of other holes a pass as well. 
 
Bogey