Walker Cup: Lytham St Annes

[ward peyronnin]

Teams have been announced and I have sorted most everything out. Dechambeax ruled at the amateur and I have a Vandy golfer and Mav Mcneilly a teammate of my friend Patrick Rogers and the old guy Steve Harvey  to follow. Have to study up on the GBI team and  Nigel "Attila" Edwards is again Capt, but more great golf and venue to savor.

We stay at the Preston Marriot about 8 miles from the course and post WC  rounds starting Monday are scheduled at Formby, Southport and Ainsdale, W. Lancashire, Delamere Forest , and Reddish Vale 18 holes each day. I have room for dinner. drinks, and maybe as an adder to golf as it is just myself and a friend. Conrad Gamble joins us Monday.

Bill Brightly posted how good the Ayrshire coast is and I agree but this area surely rivals it for proximity of fine golf.

My mobile is 812-457-9083 so any of you all planning to attend please get in touch

Tally Ho

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ward,


My wife and I will probably visit Walker Cup, probably Saturday, but it depends on the weather.


My home number +44 (0) 1625-527628.

[Thomas Dai]

Curious to know if any of the players on either side are genuine amateurs, ie have a full time day job, or are they the pretty much usual group of students or supported by a golf scholarship, a golf association or the bank of mum and dad?
Atb

[David_Tepper]

Thomas -

Here is a rundown of the U.S. team. One member (Scott Harvey, the U.S. 2014 Mid-Am champ) is 37 and another (Mike McCoy, the U.S. 2013 Mid-Am Champ) is 52. The rest are 22 and younger.

http://www.usga.org/championships/2015/walker-cup/articles/five-more-are-named-to-usa-walker-cup-team.html

Looks like the GB&I team is all 22 and younger (except for one 26-year old):

http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2015/August/The-Great-Britain-and-Ireland-Walker-Cup-Team-is-announced.aspx

DT

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you David.


Good luck to all the participants and I hope all who visit RL&StA have a terrific time. Nice to see that two older guys will be participating in the match. The concept of 'amateur' golfers however, is a somewhat strange one these days.


Atb

[Jeff Fortson]

Thank you David.


Good luck to all the participants and I hope all who visit RL&StA have a terrific time. Nice to see that two older guys will be participating in the match. The concept of 'amateur' golfers however, is a somewhat strange one these days.


Atb

People's fascination with what constitutes "amateurism" is still puzzling to me. I'll use myself as part of my example because I can speak of my experience.


I am a reinstated amateur.  I work 50-60 hours a week, have 2 children (one with special needs), married, no trust fund, but I was a golf pro for close to 10 years (the majority of which I taught and ran a golf shop).  I never made it past PGA Tour Q-School 2nd Stage when I tried playing for two years, played ok at the mini-tour level, and never played in a PGA Tour event.  The USGA made me wait 3 years of not competing before they granted my amateur status back.


With that said, I quite often feel the vibe that some look at me as some form of convict, as if I am somehow tainted and in violation of some ethical, puritanical code of honor.  Yet, when I compete in amateur events I am surrounded by kids that are receiving free tuition, equipment, and access to courses that virtually no other amateurs have.  On top of that, they are even telling you to your face that they are turning pro as soon as they can.  Yet, these kids are looked at as "pure".  It always strikes me as ridiculous that some feel this way.  Top collegiate players are basically professionals, except in name.  Beyond that, the trust fund type that never turned pro, having no reason to do so, is viewed as some righteous idol of worship.  It's easy to make a decision to never turn pro when you have $200mil sitting in a trust fund for you.


Ok, rant over.

[Jeff Fortson]

I guess I should have also stated this...


I think the USGA/R&A have always laid it out fairly simple.  In their view, if you accept money for your likeness, for teaching, or for prize money, you have violated their definition of amateurism.  If you do violate the rules of amateurism, you have to apply for reinstatement, and wait a period set by them to regain your amateur status.  Obviously, there is a blurred line of sorts that is hard to judge.  I am playing a US Mid-Am Qualifier this coming Monday with a person that has played in majors, had a PGA Tour card for a short time, I'm guessing made considerable earnings on the Tour, led the Order of Merit on the Asian Tour for a season, etc.  He didn't play professional golf for 10 years before being reinstated though.  I'm personally ok with that.  I know there are a lot of guys that aren't.  I also realize you have to draw the line somewhere and I think the USGA has done a good job of determining that line for the vast majority of cases.  This belief in some code that exists, or existed, where once you turn pro it's forever, is simply unfounded and based in myth.




To get on topic in some small way, I think the addition of two mid-ams to the Walker Cup team is refreshing and I think Scott Harvey was definitely deserving of one of those two spots and Mike McCoy's resume is super deep and deserving of an opportunity to play on the team.

[RJ_Daley]

Thank you for your interesting perspective, Jeff.  These are rationale most people inside the game wouldn't know or think about.

[Thomas Dai]

Some fine points made above by Jeff. Time to amend the qualifying criterion perhaps? Off the top of the head say something akin 50% of the players to be mid-amateurs (35>) or all the players to be above say 25 yrs old? The other oddity is that some of the others involved seem to work in golf business, eg I believe the GB&I Capt works for the EGU.
Atb

[Richard Fisher]

Dear Ward,

I'll be there both days, with a mixture of family and good friends. Very much looking forward, even though a bit saddened by the absence of any Welshmen (save the non-playing Captain) from the team.

A PS which might interest Mark Rowlinson - I discovered last Sunday morning that the journey from the car park at Harlech to the car park at Delamere Forest can be undertaken in exactly the time it takes to play both CDs of Verdi's Falstaff in the classic (1950) Toscanini recording. Just so you know.

[Jeff Fortson]

Some fine points made above by Jeff. Time to amend the qualifying criterion perhaps? Off the top of the head say something akin 50% of the players to be mid-amateurs (35>) or all the players to be above say 25 yrs old? The other oddity is that some of the others involved seem to work in golf business, eg I believe the GB&I Capt works for the EGU.
Atb

Interesting ideas.  A good way to look at this is how many of the players that are going to be on both Walker Cup squads turn pro within the next 1-3 years? With the exception of the two mid-ams on the US squad and maybe the 26 year old on the GB&I side, I'd venture ALL of them.  I've heard Maverick McNealy may stay amateur, but that decision would be easier to make for a son of a billionaire, and I don't mean that begrudgingly.


I think the USGA has taken the unilateral first step of trying to include amateurs that aren't on their way to the tour by committing to put two mid-ams on their team.  The R&A hasn't taken that step I assume because they want their most competitive team out there.  The USA has won the overwhelming amount of the matches, so maybe that is the reasoning behind the R&A's decision to stick predominantly to their young guns. 


In addition, the R&A shelved the British Mid-Amateur some years ago for reasons I still don't understand.  Maybe the participation level in the event had never gained traction.  It seems as if the competitive mid-amateur golf scene isn't as vibrant in the UK as it is here in the states. It seems more focused on club team competitions for the mid-am level player than individual events.  I think that is a shame.  I'd love to come try to qualify or play in a British Mid-Amateur Championship.  One of the ideas I've had since being reinstated would be to have a "Walker Cup" type event for mid-amateurs.  Even go as far as to include all of Europe for the GB&I side to make it more competitive if need be like was done in the Ryder Cup.  Heck, maybe that idea would be good for the Walker Cup as well.  Open up Europe to make it a consistently more even match (although that has worked against the US in the Ryder Cup in terms of winning, but it has been great for golf).

[Thomas Dai]

Jeff,


I believe the British Mid-Amateur is still going.


There is an English Mid-Amateur too, also called the Logan Trophy, that may be worth you Googling to find out whether you would be eligible to enter (my gut feel is you probably would be okay). I believe there are also Welsh, Scottish and Irish Mid-Ams as well entry to which you may also wish to investigate.


A Mid-Am version of the Walker Cup, or a generally amended W-C to maybe include Continental Euro' players as well sounds a good idea.


Atb

[jeffwarne]

Thank you David.


Good luck to all the participants and I hope all who visit RL&StA have a terrific time. Nice to see that two older guys will be participating in the match. The concept of 'amateur' golfers however, is a somewhat strange one these days.


Atb

When was it not?
How many "amateurs" had day jobs at the turn of the century?
It was just another way for the non working leisure class to distinguish themselves from the lowly professionals (caddies)


Most competitive  "amateurs" play more golf than any pros I know, and a student at least has to keep up with his studies., and still has to work or have money for incidentals.


Jeff,
It's always interesting to me to see a College coach considered an amateur, and a shirt folding 8 handicap club pro a pro.
Caddiemasters and caddies can be amateurs, yet they get paid for golf advice daily.
Many contradictions out there.
Hard for me to see how any card holding, consistent major participant can be an amateur.
You can never take their experience away

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,


I believe the British Mid-Amateur is still going.


There is an English Mid-Amateur too, also called the Logan Trophy, that may be worth you Googling to find out whether you would be eligible to enter (my gut feel is you probably would be okay). I believe there are also Welsh, Scottish and Irish Mid-Ams as well entry to which you may also wish to investigate.


A Mid-Am version of the Walker Cup, or a generally amended W-C to maybe include Continental Euro' players as well sounds a good idea.


Atb

If the British Mid-Amateur is still running it is not being done by the R&A.  I've researched their website about it and it is NLE.  I have heard there is an English Mid-Amateur (Logan Trophy?), which I will look in to (alongside the other regional Mid-Am events). I think a Mid-Am run by the R&A would be the ideal choice for Americans, knowing that it would be run and held at the highest standards and esteem as a national event instead of a regional one.  It would be like what The Amateur (British) is to the US Amateur just inserting the Mid-Am guidelines.

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,
It's always interesting to me to see a College coach considered an amateur, and a shirt folding 8 handicap club pro a pro.
Caddiemasters and caddies can be amateurs, yet they get paid for golf advice daily.
Many contradictions out there.
Hard for me to see how any card holding, consistent major participant can be an amateur.
You can never take their experience away

I agree there are a lot of contradictions re: caddies/club pros, etc.  As for where to draw the line on former member of major professional tours... that's difficult to determine.  I agree it is a very grey area and the arbitrary nature of it makes it difficult to look at from outside the reinstatement dept of the USGA. I think overall the USGA has done a very good job in granting reinstatement.  Obviously, there are individual cases that raise eyebrows where the USGA probably dropped the ball (ie the often discussed Dillard Pruitt reinstatement).  I like hearing people's opinions on where they think the line should be drawn.  With that said I'm comfortable with the job the USGA is doing in the reinstatement process and decision making, so far.

[Richard Fisher]

The R&A cancelled the British Mid-Amateur several years ago - the last one had been announced for Harlech, but never took place. Even reducing the age limit from 35 to 25 had not generated the kind of player traction that had been expected (following the success of the US example), and whilst there are indeed national, regional and other 'mid-amateur' events, these have never echoed the success of (say) the amateur Seniors championships, of which there are now a plethora in the UK, with both national 'open' and 'closed' senior events - in Wales, for example, the Welsh Open Amateur Seniors event was held at Nefyn this year, whilst the Welsh (Closed) Seniors Championship is always held at Aberdovey.

Why the 'mid-am' concept has not taken off in the same way here in the UK, and why there is no pressure to include mid-amateurs in (say) the British Walker Cup team, I couldn't explain. Others will doubtless have a view.

[Buck Wolter]

I think the Mike McCoy selection is outstanding -- he has had an illustrious Amateur career USGA titles, Crump Cups, Iowa Amateurs, blah, blah, blah. Hopefully a wily 52 year old can keep pace with the flat-bellies,. Good year for Iowa golf in the British Isles. The first I saw it was when Zach Johnson tweeted his congratulations which is pretty cool.

[Ronald Montesano]

Warne,


Which college coaches are amateurs? Haas from Wake and Small from Illinois compete in club pro events all the time, but I can't recall the last time I saw someone other than Tim Mickelson play in the Porter Cup or other amateur event, and he doesn't ever do all that well.

[Niall C]

When was it not?
How many "amateurs" had day jobs at the turn of the century?
It was just another way for the non working leisure class to distinguish themselves from the lowly professionals (caddies)

Jeff


Not sure which century you are referring to but in the late 1800's early 1900's quite a few of the top amateurs did have day jobs albeit based on their prowess at golf. Think of Harold Hilton as editor of a golf magazine, Harry Colt as club secretary and golf course architect, Bernard Darwin as golf writer etc. All talented people at what they did but also in a position to either directly or indirectly influence the definition of amateur such that their golf related earnings didn't impinge on their amateur status.


Niall

[Pete Lavallee]

The wife and I have just finished our stay at Lytham St Anne's, we have the Dormy house all to ourselves tonight. The course is in great shape, these could be the best links greens I've played on, very subtle breaks without any wild undulations. Thankfully we didn't have to hit me off mats, the course played a little tougher because the holes were all cut in the front of the greens. If the wind is down the boys should go low, it was quite breezy yesterday. They have a great deal here with golf the Dormy house breakfast and dinner with jacket and tie included.

[Steve Salmen]

I doubt this will happen, but I hope I live long enough to see an amateur win a major.  The most likely way that will happen is if a prodigy who happens to love the game,has tremendous backing or family wealth. As much as I'd like to see a fellow like Johnny Goodman win, we're more likely to see it happen to the likes of a Frank Stranahan. That would be fine with me also. Heck, stranger things have happened: I was at games 3 and 4 in 2004 when Boston won their first WS in 86 years.

[David_Tepper]

6-time GB&I Walker Cupper Gary Wolstenhome makes the case for pros who were former Walker Cuppers (such as Colin Montgomerie and Padraig Harrington) to serve as Walker Cup captains. Sounds like a good idea to me.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/13648660.Wolstenholme_touts_Monty_and_Harrington_for_Walker_Cup_role/

[Ryan Coles]

Amateurism in golf is full of pious hypocrisy by those who seek or claim to preserve it.

The unions and associations have umpteen corporate partners. Even the Walker Cup is in association with Rolex.

I'm not criticising the decision of commercial funding where needed, but the pretence of amateurism should be dropped. It's ignored when it suits and used to hold back and stifle when it doesn't.

It's also riddled with outdated connotations of class.

[BHoover]

I just checked on the broadcast schedule for the Walker Cup this weekend. Turns out that Fox, the "official U.S. television partner "of the USGA, has exactly ZERO coverage of the event. The only TV coverage here in the U.S. is a freaking 2-hour highlight show on Sunday on ESPN2. There is some online coverage on ESPN3, but that is always tough to access. So ZERO television coverage in the U.S. What a joke.

Thanks, USGA. Way to "grow the game" (to borrow their catchphrase).

[Mark Pritchett]

I just checked on the broadcast schedule for the Walker Cup this weekend. Turns out that Fox, the "official U.S. television partner "of the USGA, has exactly ZERO coverage of the event. The only TV coverage here in the U.S. is a freaking 2-hour highlight show on Sunday on ESPN2. There is some online coverage on ESPN3, but that is always tough to access. So ZERO television coverage in the U.S. What a joke.

Thanks, USGA. Way to "grow the game" (to borrow their catchphrase).

I guess this is the fresh, out side of the box thinking that Fox brings to the USGA broadcasting table.