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Niall C

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2015, 11:55:51 AM »
Tiger was using a 975D in 2000, no way does that go as far as the current crop of drivers and ball.


Still amazing Stats by Spieth. Will be fun to watch him and Rory.


Greg


That's an interesting point. I recently decided to upgrade on my ironmongery, going from a bastardised set of Ping Eye 2 irons to Ping G25 irons (second hand) and from a Taylor Made R7 driver to a Ping G30 driver. The Ping G30 was brand new and custom fitted. I'm now driving the ball shorter by 20-30 yards on a good drive (5 yards more carry but 30 yards less run) with my new 9 iron running further than the driver. I've got several friends who have had similar experiences when buying new drivers.


It seems to me that the technology is moving towards greater carry at the expense of run which is a bugger when you play the majority of your golf on links. Is this a case where technology is adapting to course (conditions) rather than courses adapting to technology ?


Niall

Thomas Dai

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2015, 12:02:02 PM »
The concept of par for these guys is totally out of kilter with other golfers. The distance they hit the ball is such that par-5's no longer exist for them. Unless the weather is vile or some aspect of the course is really, really tricked up, these guys are so good that we shouldn't really expect winning scores around the 4x72 mark any more.


For these guys to be shooting a winning score of up around 4x72 the courses need to be way, way longer, 9,000-10,000 yd range or more so par-5's are driver, fairway metal and a full mid/short iron once again, that par-3's are no longer mostly 6-7-8 iron or less but 2-3-4 irons instead or an occasional fairway metal too and that most par-4's require a driver and a very long iron/fairway metal to reach the green......or a roll-back ball and a few other rule changes like max and min lofts on clubs, less clubs in the bags etc happens. I'm not holding my breath though.


Rant over! :)


Atb
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 12:12:12 PM by Thomas Dai »

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2015, 12:05:53 PM »
Tiger was using a 975D in 2000, no way does that go as far as the current crop of drivers and ball.



The modern driver is not longer, just more forgiving, the modern ball is longer. I know this because a good drive with my modern driver outflies my hickory shafted Wilsonian Driving Brassie by less than 8%. Now if you think that there is a big difference between clubs built 15 years apart, how much of a difference should there be between clubs built 100 years apart?

Tiger this year averaged 1.7 yards per drive more than what he did in 2000. The 975D is just as long as todays drivers, the modern ball is longer than the Nike Tour Accuracy he played with back in 2000.


« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 12:10:55 PM by Ben Hollerbach »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2015, 12:15:18 PM »
How many guys shot as well on the back nine on Sunday.  These guys make too much money for being bench players so play without real pressure for large parts of every tournament.  We have a local kid making over a million dollars a year that just flat knows how to make a cut and then folds every week.  He is an amazing talent that can't win and doesn't need too.  You want to lower the scores, have them play for less money and eliminate endorsements, caddies and coaches.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2015, 12:22:17 PM »
By lower scores I meant that -5 is lower than -20, kinda like a +3 is a lower handicap than a 3.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2015, 01:10:48 PM »
The hole has simply gotten larger.  Have you ever seen so many contenders putt so well?  It's not the equipment, the ball or the length of the courses.  It's the perfect greens at perfect speed.  If more putts get to the hole more go in.  If a putt that is going a comfortable distance past the hole is going slower more putts go in.  ie: A putt going two foot past the hole on a fast green is going slower at the hole than on a slow green.  If every put holds the intended line more putts go in.  As in all the things killing golf it comes back to the out of control turf industry and over jealous superintendents.

At the Taylor Made facility in San Diego, I was given a pretty good demo of the importance of the new putters with groove or rough surfaces in giving a putt true over spin, so we can't dismiss the role of tech in putting, too.

Less "skitter" from both ball and turf surface adds up.

When Pelz wrote his book, I think 6 feet was the 50% mark for pros, now I think its 10 or 12 at least for top putters.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Charlie_Bell

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2015, 02:09:44 PM »
Ben H,  I don't know if it's the ball or the driver, and I agree that both are straighter than ever.  But it's stupefying that Tiger is actually longer at the age of 39 than he was at the age of 24.  In how many speed-power actions does one improve as he approaches 40?



 

JJShanley

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2015, 02:30:00 PM »
The concept of par for these guys is totally out of kilter with other golfers. The distance they hit the ball is such that par-5's no longer exist for them. Unless the weather is vile or some aspect of the course is really, really tricked up, these guys are so good that we shouldn't really expect winning scores around the 4x72 mark any more.


For these guys to be shooting a winning score of up around 4x72 the courses need to be way, way longer, 9,000-10,000 yd range or more so par-5's are driver, fairway metal and a full mid/short iron once again, that par-3's are no longer mostly 6-7-8 iron or less but 2-3-4 irons instead or an occasional fairway metal too and that most par-4's require a driver and a very long iron/fairway metal to reach the green......or a roll-back ball and a few other rule changes like max and min lofts on clubs, less clubs in the bags etc happens. I'm not holding my breath though.


Rant over! :)


Atb




I wonder: would fewer clubs in the bag for us all affect the flat bellies more than it would the rest of us?


If limited to twelve I'd select:
  • Driver
  • Two from 3-wood, 2-Hybrid, and 5-iron depending on the occasion.
  • 6-iron
  • 7-iron
  • 8-iron
  • 9-iron
  • 46° Wedge
  • 50° Wedge
  • 54° Wedge
  • 58° Wedge
  • Putter.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2015, 02:35:38 PM »
Sadly, everything affects the average golfer from 4-10X a top pro, maybe 20 X......

Also sadly, I think if anyone could figure out a way to architecturally stop the top pros, it would be Pete Dye and major championship set ups on his courses.  Which is why I haven't really given the subject a lot of thought.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2015, 04:03:28 PM »
I wonder: would fewer clubs in the bag for us all affect the flat bellies more than it would the rest of us?
If limited to twelve I'd select:
  • Driver
  • Two from 3-wood, 2-Hybrid, and 5-iron depending on the occasion.
  • 6-iron
  • 7-iron
  • 8-iron
  • 9-iron
  • 46° Wedge
  • 50° Wedge
  • 54° Wedge
  • 58° Wedge
  • Putter.
There's a kind of rule of thumb in golf that there's a 10 yd gap between clubs.

I'm far from convinced, indeed my take is the faster you swing the club the bigger the yardage gap between each club will be.

I'm sure there's a mathmatical model for this out there which someone will now quote from but to me a slow swinger with a say 5 yd gap is going to be effected less by carrying fewer clubs than a fast swinger with say a 20 yd gap when having 14 clubs. Hence the player with the fast swing if limited to say 8 or 9 or 10 clubs will have to play more partial shots, maybe work the ball more, be more of a shotmaker. Show their skill.

I suggest that a max loft of say 55* or even 50* is likely to have more effect on better players as generally speaking lesser players are not so good with more loft and when they try to use high lofted wedges they often seem to hit poor shots so taking very lofted clubs out of their hands ought to reduce their number of poor shots.

Atb

Andrew Buck

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2015, 04:15:00 PM »
Pro's have many advantages most of us don't.  First and foremost is practice time, with unlimited technology, they can hone their swing to match distances at a very precise level.  Right now, most pro's use several swing length tempo combinations to configure their wedges for every distance from 150 yards in.  If they have to sacrifice a few clubs, they will simply have to practice and hone in a few additional swing length tempo combinations for longer clubs than currently exists.

For us mortals that have to choose if we wish to spend our limited time playing or practicing, we will have a far harder time adapting to any change.

JJShanley

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2015, 04:18:04 PM »
Then again, if I have to part ways with my 3- and 4-irons, that means more of my practice goes towards scoring clubs.  I break 80 on a good around Warren, but I focus on the 8-irons and shorter clubs during practice sessions.

jeffwarne

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2015, 08:49:39 PM »
Ben H,  I don't know if it's the ball or the driver, and I agree that both are straighter than ever.  But it's stupefying that Tiger is actually longer at the age of 39 than he was at the age of 24.  In how many speed-power actions does one improve as he approaches 40?


One improves as he ages in any sport where the manufacturers, rather than the governing bodies, control the equipment
tennis went thru it, bowling, baseball-at times-in fact it was the hot(ter) ball that propelled Ruth's run
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Doug Siebert

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2015, 02:13:56 PM »
That's an interesting point. I recently decided to upgrade on my ironmongery, going from a bastardised set of Ping Eye 2 irons to Ping G25 irons (second hand) and from a Taylor Made R7 driver to a Ping G30 driver. The Ping G30 was brand new and custom fitted. I'm now driving the ball shorter by 20-30 yards on a good drive (5 yards more carry but 30 yards less run) with my new 9 iron running further than the driver. I've got several friends who have had similar experiences when buying new drivers.


It seems to me that the technology is moving towards greater carry at the expense of run which is a bugger when you play the majority of your golf on links. Is this a case where technology is adapting to course (conditions) rather than courses adapting to technology ?


I assume the new driver is either flying much higher, or has a lot more spin?  That may be addressed via loft and/or shaft changes, though you might lose the extra 5 yards of carry in the process.

Nothing wrong with having two drivers, and bringing the one best suited to the course you are playing that day.  On your typical links course you probably want that run, though maybe if the course is really short and tight you'd rather the ball settle where it lands to reduce the changes of rolling into trouble.  Or heck, if you're like me and can't think of 14 useful clubs to carry (I don't carry any fairway woods) carry two drivers.  I can only wish I had one that would roll 30 yards, I've never had any but the no-roll type even when I had a 6.5* driver in the 90s...  I've only been carrying two because I haven't had one I really like for about 5 or 6 years, but I think I finally found a keeper, though I'm not sure what I'd put in place of the second driver other than a fairway wood or hybrid I'll never use.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Doug Siebert

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2015, 02:24:21 PM »
Ben H,  I don't know if it's the ball or the driver, and I agree that both are straighter than ever.  But it's stupefying that Tiger is actually longer at the age of 39 than he was at the age of 24.  In how many speed-power actions does one improve as he approaches 40?


I'm longer now at 49 than I was at 24, and at 39 quite a bit longer than I am today. And that was true even when I played a Top Flight back at 24 (normally I played balatas, but on bad days I'd switch to whatever I found because ruining a ball for every mishit was too expensive as a grad student!)

It ain't fitness, no more matter how much some people want to believe that. I only wish I could play one round with today's equipment with the body/swing I had at 24, just to see what it is like to be the guys playing the tour these days hitting drives that carry 340.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Doug Siebert

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2015, 02:26:54 PM »
I wonder: would fewer clubs in the bag for us all affect the flat bellies more than it would the rest of us?


Why in the world do you think it would affect them more?  They could drop half their irons and adjust to the added gaps.  If you put up a scratch against a pro who (let's say) loses by 10 shots, then take away half their clubs, I bet the scratch loses by 12 or 13 shots.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2015, 02:50:21 PM »

Nothing wrong with having two drivers, and bringing the one best suited to the course you are playing that day.  On your typical links course you probably want that run, though maybe if the course is really short and tight you'd rather the ball settle where it lands to reduce the changes of rolling into trouble.  Or heck, if you're like me and can't think of 14 useful clubs to carry (I don't carry any fairway woods) carry two drivers.  I can only wish I had one that would roll 30 yards, I've never had any but the no-roll type even when I had a 6.5* driver in the 90s...  I've only been carrying two because I haven't had one I really like for about 5 or 6 years, but I think I finally found a keeper, though I'm not sure what I'd put in place of the second driver other than a fairway wood or hybrid I'll never use.


When Johnny Miller won The Open at Birkdale he apparently carried 2 drivers, one for distance and another for accuracy. I'm not sure of the exact club specs but I guess they were different lengths and had different lofts.


Apologies for going Golfwrx-like here but I experimented with two modern titanium/graphite shafted drivers for a while a year or so ago. One had a standard length shaft and lower loft for tee shots when distance was needed and appropriate and the second had a shaft cut-down a bit and more loft for tee shot accuracy and use from the fairway as well. The second one I tweaked to ensure it still had reasonable swingweight. What I found was that I wasn't hitting the ball much further with the longer club than the shorter one and that the shorter one wasn't much more accurate than the longer shafted one, so now I carry just one driver again.


Good points mentioned about flight and roll above. How things have changed with modern clubs (and balls). I still occasionally use my old steel shafted persimmon driver and the ball flight compared to a modern 460cc titanium/graphite driver is sooo much lower and the persimmon one provides very significantly more roll. I also find this when I play with hickories. Unfortunately the older clubs don't seem to hit the ball as straight, but that's part of the enjoyment and interest in playing them.


The club which gives me most roll though is a Ping Eye 1-iron that I've had for nearly 30 years which flies quail high when required and rolls for ever. I bought another one from Ebay for my big, strong teenage son and he's been amazed with the flight and distance it provides. A great links club...back in the pre-hybrid club days most pro's and many amateurs seemed to carry one as their go-to tee shot club and there were some great exponants of the club, Jack Nicklaus with his MacGregor blade and especially Sandy Lyle with his Ping come to mind. Not just the introduction of hybrid clubs but the also the introduction of the modern less-spinny, straighter flying ball had a lot to with killing off the use of 1-irons I reckon. Shame in many (if not all) ways.


Atb
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 02:57:16 PM by Thomas Dai »

Jay Mickle

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2015, 03:07:30 PM »
In track and field the World records for the high jump and mile run are 8'1/2" and 3:43.13 respectively. Both are so far removed from what I envision a human capable of that I am not sure what we should expect of a golf course to harness the skill and fitness of today's top golf professionals.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Bob Montle

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2015, 03:18:31 PM »
As I wrote in an earlier post, I'm driving over 50 yards longer now at 66 than I did at 30 or 40 or 50 years of age.    :o

It's the BALL, stupid.  ;)
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Jay Mickle

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@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2015, 06:00:33 PM »
As I wrote in an earlier post, I'm driving over 50 yards longer now at 66 than I did at 30 or 40 or 50 years of age.    :o

It's the BALL, stupid.  ;)

Oddly enough I hit it 50 yds shorter at age 55 than I did at 15, 25 and 35 years of age. Even odder...I'm golfing better now.

Bob Montle

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2015, 07:46:29 PM »
On 2nd thought, there is at least one way in which the club technology has added distance to duffers like myself.

In my case, i always drove with a 3 wood because I couldn't get anything but a low duck hook with the driver, and could barely get it off the ground.   My new 11 degree Nike is so forgiving that all I have to do is keep my hands quiet and hit the ball and it goes like a rocket.

The face of a modern driver is so much larger than the old ones. This gives the golfer more confidence that he/she will hit the ball cleanly.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

David_Tepper

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Niall C

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2015, 11:28:50 AM »
Doug/Thomas,


Re the difference in modern day clubs versus what went before - as part of the fitting process I was told that the new driver gave me the ideal spin rate (2600 from what I remember). The analysis from hitting the ball into the nets was on length of carry, spin rate and spread of direction. In all three the new club performed better than the old one.


In practice it probably is better in all three than my old driver but I've still lost 20/30 yards, and thats not just on links. During the summer in Scotland you will generally get a decent amount of run on a parkland. Not as crazy as a links but still a good amount of run. I've played with several other golfers this year who have similarly upgraded and have a similar story to tell.


I've come to the conclusion that the clubs have been designed for courses with zero or near zero run. That seems to me to be a case of club design changing to suit course conditions (presumably in the US ?).


Niall

David_Tepper

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Re: Cumulative Scoring from This Year's Major Championships
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2015, 01:20:41 PM »
Niall -

Have you gone back to the person who did the club fitting for your driver and asked about the loss of distance due to less roll?

DT