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Ran Morrissett

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 That’s right – Jack Nicklaus.

No more appropriate Feature Interview to post during the week of the PGA Championship than with a five time winner of the event!

The single biggest challenge for all architects is securing good projects (good land + good owner), so what a spectacular advantage Nicklaus Design enjoys in that regard. Nobody else made the concession at Birkdale (still the greatest act of sportsmanship of which I am aware), the 1 iron at Pebble in 1972, the clutch - though futile - long bomb on 18 at Turnberry in 1977, the eagle putt and then near hole out at 15 and 16 at Augusta in 1986. So on and so on, decade after decade.

This lengthy Feature Interview, which we opt to present in its entirety versus spreading out over two months, was conducted over several months. Joel Stewart and I worked on the questions which Joel submitted to Scott Tolley in the Nicklaus organization. As Nicklaus jetted around (one of the trips was to Asia), Scott taped his answers. Back and forth ensued and now you can read the finished product. One thing is for sure: Nicklaus, at age 75, is still on the go. As in always. Pretty amazing.

As chronicled in the May River profile on this site, his design style has evolved. He freely admits he first built courses that fit his game. Move ahead into the 1990s and you get my favorite Nicklaus course, Cabo del Sol in Mexico. Next personal favorite is the low profile May River. That’s two wildly disparate properties! In the United States, Nicklaus Design has worked in 39 (!) states. In fact, he mentions the 27 hole Governor’s Club outside of Chapel Hill, North Carolina in one of his answers, site of many a Morrissett Cup as Mom and Dad initially retired there. When he tries something really different like at Dismal River, everyone cries, ‘That’s not a Nicklaus!’ Such is the price for having done so many courses that people leap to stereotype your work.


Cabo del Sol is an intoxicating mix of cacti, sea, topography, and strategy.

Of course, Nicklaus Design extends globally. In fact, they have worked in two more countries (41) than states in America.  :o  When I saw his work in Malaysia,  across from Singapore on Bintan and China in the mid-1990s, they were invariably superior to everything else in the region. How he tacked the golfer up and over a hillside at Chung Shan was superb.  At the time, the course was carved out of a jungle and the place was gorgeous. Sadly, I have seen more recent photos that show buildings hugging the perimeter that mar what was an awesome playing experience at that time. That’s not Nicklaus’s fault – he gave the owners a great course. Indeed, one of the highlights of this Feature Interview is his candid responses on the owner/architect relationship and building courses specific to their needs.

Ironically, one of my favorite responses contains, ‘While it isn’t exactly the answer you were looking for, … .’  That’s the beauty of being Jack Nicklaus – you get to say what you think. Unlike other sport superstars, Nicklaus has used his influence to try and expand and improve his sport. Remember the Cayman ball and the furrowed bunkers? I loved both concepts and admire him for trying.

I have met him twice and he has said the same thing both times, ‘Hi, I’m Jack Nicklaus.’ The second time at The Carolina Hotel I suavely shrieked, ‘I know who you are!’ but it’s a mark of the man that he introduces himself in that manner. The way he comports himself - in victory and defeat –  is exemplary in the truest sense of the word. That’s what heroes are for: to show us how to be the best that we can be at all times.

Hope you enjoy this month’s Feature Interview with - as Peter Allis use to stay in that low, gravelly voice - The Great Man.
 
Best,
 

Phil Young

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2015, 04:24:25 PM »
BRAVO Ran!

Thomas Dai

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2015, 05:14:54 PM »
Splendid. Many thanks. Well done.
Atb

Joel_Stewart

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2015, 05:22:33 PM »
Around the beginning of 2015 a discussion began about possibly interviewing Jack Nicklaus and the process began.  When we received an email that Jack would do the interview, we had been warned that his passion for architecture would be very evident.  What we did not know is it would turn out to be one of the most comprehensive interviews Jack has done on architecture.

This process took several months mainly due to his travel schedule.  Receiving the Congressional Medal of Honor, the opening of a new wing at the USGA museum, his commitments at the Masters and his tournament at Muirfield Village along with several trips overseas, we finally completed the interview.


An interview this extensive could not have happened without numerous people assisting from inside the Nicklaus organization.  First and foremost, Scott Tolley who is in charge of corporate communications for the Nicklaus Companies.  Jim Mandville graciously assisted with some photographs including a few that go way back to the beginning of Jacks career in architecture.  Also Jim Lipe, Chris Cochran and Brittany Miller.
I’ve been fortunate to watch Jack in his heyday as the world’s greatest golfer.  The first time I followed him at length was at Pebble Beach in the 1972 US Open when he was paired with Julius Boros and an amateur named Lanny Wadkins.  Now as an architect I’ve been fortunate to play many of his courses.  It was a pleasure to do this interview and like all on GCA I’m grateful for his lifelong commitment to golf.   
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 07:39:56 PM by Joel_Stewart »

David_Tepper

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2015, 06:00:06 PM »
Ran & Joel -

Well done!

DT

Peter Pallotta

Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2015, 06:59:52 PM »
My thanks too, gents. Reading that was a genuine pleasure, and, because Mr. Nicklaus is as straightforward as ever, it was educational too. For me, the most interesting and important answer was in reference to the vocation/job -- which was all about serving the client and not his ego. (There can be a whole long thread just on that, i.e. on what Mr N means by it, on what it might mean in general and more philosophically, the results of that etc etc.)
Thanks again. Excellent work. And by the way, thanks for not fooling us; for one horrible second before I clicked on your post, I was sure you were referring not to Jack Nicklaus but to yourself!
Peter
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 07:22:51 PM by PPallotta »

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2015, 08:19:16 PM »
A sincere thank-you to Ran, Joel, Jack Nicklaus and everyone who worked to make this happen.


A great read.

Tom Fagerli

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2015, 10:06:32 PM »
Fantastic stuff! Thanks Ran and Joel for doing this. Of course thanks to the game's greatest player for being interviewed. How about his recollection of driving 18 all four rounds! I know it was the small ball but it was steel and persimmon! Jack was crazy long, and the best putter. 1986 Masters the greatest tournament ever. Oh, he was 46!

BHoover

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2015, 10:16:00 PM »
Enjoyed the interview with Mr. Nicklaus. It was nice to see that he's still passionate about golf when it comes to his knowledge of architecture. Too often, he can come across as if he doesn't care about the game, but he obviously has developed a passion for architecture (even if his courses are divisive around here).

Thanks for posting.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2015, 06:52:55 AM »
Ran:  Well Done! 


Jack appears to be very passionate about gca and his objectives in course design are admirable.


One has to realize that when a person is recognized as the greatest ever in one profession that it is perhaps unfair to view anything less than being the greatest in another profession as being unsuccessful.  He has his great designs and not so great designs but he always did a lot more than simply adding his name to a course.

astavrides

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2015, 08:30:09 AM »
good interview.
I like the part about Dye and Nicklaus saying that golf is more fun when played downhill. Heresy to a lot of people on this website, but I agree with them.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2015, 08:54:07 AM »
I really enjoyed the interview.  Thank you!

Jim Franklin

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2015, 09:51:32 AM »
Well done, thanks.
Mr Hurricane

Gary Sato

Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2015, 04:01:42 PM »
Its a great interview.


Drilling down on a few point.


1.  Pete Dye used the $40,000 fee for Harbour Town and put it back into the course.  Funny.


2. He hasn't played Pine Valley since 1961 and would like to return.  This must have been on his honeymoon?


3.  He agreed that no changes on the Old Course should have been made. 


4. He reluctantly agreed that free formed (Mackenzie) bunker style at Augusta was better but qualified it.


5.  Unlike Harry Colt he connects holes with par 3's.

Doug Wright

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2015, 07:37:23 PM »
Well done Ran and Joel! Excellent Q&A. Thanks.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

jeffwarne

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2015, 08:59:30 PM »
Great job guys


"Is there a course you'd like to see for the first time?"
"None that I can think of"


I absolutely cannot relate to that statement.
Jack needs to hang out on GCA more.... ;) ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jason Topp

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2015, 11:36:39 AM »
Terrific addition to the best section on the site!  Thanks to everyone involved.

MCirba

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2015, 11:50:14 AM »
Ran and Joel,

Thank you very much for doing this.   I grew up idolizing Jack Nicklaus the golfer and trying to emulate his swing with obviously limited success.  ;)   But who else better to learn from as a kid than the instructions offered in his book, "The Greatest Game of All"?

As a golf course architect, I believe it's fascinating to see how Nicklaus has evolved over time and one could almost do a thesis on the obvious changes to his work in different eras.   In recent years, it's been similarly fascinating to see how his co-design work at Sebonack has influenced designs which followed; it's almost as if he sees the need to offer something more "minimalistic" than earlier efforts yet Jack being Jack, stubbornly (and probably rightly) insists that many courses called minimalist are anything but.

Jack still seems to view most architecture through the eyes of the skilled, competitive golfer, but it's been refreshingly illustrative to see the refinements he's made to his craft to accommodate the rest of us.

Great work Joel and Ran...thanks again!

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2015, 12:25:21 PM »


Drilling down on a few point.

3.  He agreed that no changes on the Old Course should have been made.
 


This was the most bothersome point of the interview to me.  At the time the proposed changes to The Old Course were announced, Jack would not say anything publicly against them -- he even said something a few days later to the effect that the 11th green should have been softened many years earlier.


Up to that point, Bob Cupp, Jack's former associate and the President of the ASGCA at the time, had expressed outrage to me in private about the changes, and promised the ASGCA would take a forceful position.  But Bob was not going to take a strong position on anything that might contradict Jack ... so the ASGCA waited and waited, and then took no position, and had a bunch of individual members issue their own wishy-washy assessments.


The European Institute of Golf Course Architects had its own conflict, that one of its board members was the consultant on the job.  Without a strong statement from the ASGCA, therefore, the whole protest fizzled.


Jack probably knows little or nothing about any of this stuff that went on behind the scenes, but if he'd actually said something against the changes at the time, it could have made a big difference.

Kalen Braley

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2015, 01:53:34 PM »
Ran,
 
This is just awesomely terrific. A great read and nice job indeed!!!

James Brown

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2015, 01:54:06 PM »
Great job guys


"Is there a course you'd like to see for the first time?"
"None that I can think of"


I absolutely cannot relate to that statement.
Jack needs to hang out on GCA more.... ;) ;D


When I was a Dornoch last week I noticed a picture of Jack on the first tee in the pro shop.  My caddie, Martin Macleod, actually caddied for him in late July 2014 when Nicklaus played it for the first time.  Said he asked lots of questions about the bunkering.  He teed off with nobody around and the whole town was there. Y the 16th green. 

Joel_Stewart

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2015, 01:59:50 PM »
Tom.   This question was in our initial interview and we didn't want to push it. 

We followed up with a question about the up coming changes to Turnberry but he declined to answer as he had not seen the routing and didn't know the specifics.

We had already asked the other St. Andrews questions and felt we had to move on.



Ben Sims

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2015, 02:36:45 PM »
Firstly, what an excellent interview. I learned a great deal. The text reinforces something foreign to me but seemingly ever-present in those that succeed at the highest echelons of their profession; an ego of ultimate self-belief no matter the circumstance. Doubt doesn't seem to impede Jack Nicklaus, nor does reflection upon impetus or inspiration. In this way he is very similar to Tiger (or I should say Tiger to him).

I read a specific paragraph that had equal parts of positive and negative. I'd like to break it down.

Quote
I think we have to be careful at times when labeling people minimalists. You can’t confuse a look with actual minimalism. My feeling is that minimalism is finding a golf course and utilizing the property almost 100 percent...

What a fantastic way of describing the modern minimalist movement. It is NOT about furry bunker edges. If the goal is to break down what the modern golden age of design has wrought, I think one of the last aspects of the study should be the aesthetic.

Quote
...as we did at Dismal River. We moved virtually zero dirt at Dismal River and in the end, unfortunately got much criticism because the greens were too severe.  The greens were what was there. That was minimalist. I was then asked to adjust the greens and that, to me, was still minimalistic but it definitely required moving some dirt.

Jack starts off giving a fantastic definition of minimalism only then to pigeon-hole its tenets into the movement of material. This shows a lack of care for the design tenets of minimalism. I would've liked to have seen a more nuanced version of this discussion from him. Especially with his and his crew's involvement with Renaissance at Sebonack.

Quote
I’ve seen many of the guys call themselves minimalists, yet they have moved a great deal of dirt to create the look of a minimalistic golf course. I’ve done many, many golf courses that are far more minimalistic than what some of the minimalists do.

This strikes me as simple gamesmanship from a sporting great. It still undercuts and marginalizes what the great practitioners of the minimalist movement have done. If Jack wants to define what minimalism is versus his competition, that's his prerogative. However, there is an intellectual hazard in marginalizing and attempting to define minimalism when his own "minimalist" courses look more contrived than his contemporaries. He owes no answer to any of us, of course, but it seems he is just defending his own brand rather than reflecting upon how his attempts at minimalism actually worked.

Quote
On other occasions where it is necessary to move dirt to create a golf course, that’s OK. Because your objective is not to make sure that you don’t move any dirt; the objective is to produce a good golf course for your client.  Sometimes you can find it and sometimes you have to create it, or a combination thereof.

Thus ends the shit sandwich that is the modern style of negative information delivery. Jack starts us off with a generic but wonderfully salient version of golf course architecture minimalism. The two middle stanzas make a concerted attempt to defend his work alongside the contemporaries of the minimalist movement. I think he fails in this defense. It serves to highlight what I would call a failure of his firm to understand minimalism. It defines that failure as a willingness to not move material and then defines the work as "far more minimalistic than what some of the minimalists do." As mentioned previously, I would like to read a more detailed transcript of Jack's comments regarding the best sites he's been given. The paragraph ends with another well-worded and concise explanation of how minimalism should work.

I understand he owes no explanation to us, but I think he contradicts himself in the paragraph. The tendency to defend against perception and criticism (a trait of competitiveness) overwhelms what could and should be easy self-reflection. I was disappointed not only with his reactions to a line of questioning on minimalism, but also to his aloofness to inspiration. To say that he wasn't thinking of any specific traits of classic golf holes when he designed certain elements of his own golf holes strikes me as arrogant.

All-in-all, a great get by Ran and something that members of the site should be proud. This little grouping of internet trolls looking to make a difference in the golf architecture world is big enough to attract the best player of all time. Well done.

Peter Pallotta

Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2015, 02:58:40 PM »
Ben - very good post and analysis/breakdown. I might differ only in taking a simpler approach, ie when I read that section, I was struck by many of the same notions you were; but my overriding impression was that JN was a) stressing the value of not being wedded to a particular design philosophy/approach (which, off Tom's post, may be how many current architects market themselves) and b) that he conflated/blurred the distinction between minimalism and naturalism (which in fairness I think the majority of architects also do).
Peter
PS - yes, how I wish sometimes that I was born with or knew how to develop that kind of ego healthy self regard!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 03:01:25 PM by PPallotta »

MCirba

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Re: In-depth Feature Interview with Game's Greatest Player now posted
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2015, 03:06:13 PM »
Ben/Peter,

To continue along this vein, I do note the amazing ability to self confidently, perhaps arrogantly, state one's opinion's strongly and with a related inability to concede error, doubt, or failure.

But the facts indicate that Jack does actually listen to a degree.   The evolution of his own designs from courses that simply suited his left-to-right game to courses that simply suited a top-level player's game (both mostly penal), to the "kinder, gentler Bear" courses that were/are much more playable, to the more naturalistic type courses espoused by minimalists, (whether dirt was moved or not) in recent years.

Whether this is simply being a dedicated follower of fashion or attempts by Jack and his team to respond to criticism over time is unclear but there is no question his basic designs changed and evolved over the past 35 or so years he's been practicing.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/