[Patrick_Mucci]

was so bad that I can't believe that it's remained intact since opening day.
 
The left front half or third of the putting surface sloped, precipitously down into a bordering water hazard.
 
To the first time golfer, you're unaware of the juxtaposition of these two features from the DZ and totally unaware of the very sloped nature of the front of the green.
 
Any approach shot, hit with a slight draw, will be unduly penalized by the ball rolling into the hazard.
 
The recovery is no joy either since the green is sloped so steep from the hazard up to the flat portion of the green.
 
If the hole is cut in the front center or front right, the margin of error is miniscule.
 
I can't believe that an architect, especially an architect of note, would craft such a horrible feature.
 
There were other features, and other greens that left me bewildered, as to WHY ?
 
Are there any other greens where the front portion is very steeply sloped into an adjacent water hazard ?

[Tom_Doak]

That sounds really stupid, but that's the way they try to maintain some championship courses nowadays.  They probably got the idea from the 15th at Augusta.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,
 
The 15th at ANGC is mild by comparison.
 
I'm talking about a slope so steep that you could slip/trip and roll down into the adjacent hazard.
 
It's bizarre.

[GLawson]

Will you share which course, Pat?

[Will Peterson]

Sounds similar to the 2nd at the Ritz in Orlando.  The front portion of the green slopes into a hazard.  Balls landing in the center of the front half of the green with 7-9 irons will slowly trickle left into the hazard.  The green doesn't appear to have that much slope from the fairway.

[cary lichtenstein]

Sounds similar to the 2nd at the Ritz in Orlando.  The front portion of the green slopes into a hazard.  Balls landing in the center of the front half of the green with 7-9 irons will slowly trickle left into the hazard.  The green doesn't appear to have that much slope from the fairway.

I thought the same course

[Phil McDade]

Valhalla in Spain, where they played the Ryder Cup one year? Doesn't it have a similar hole?

[BCrosby]

It is refreshing to hear discussions about a problematical hole that don't refer to the hole as "unfair". 


The feature Pat describes is just dumb golf architecture.


Bob

[Jim Franklin]

Please share so we can avoid.

[Jon Cavalier]

Sounds similar to the 2nd at the Ritz in Orlando.  The front portion of the green slopes into a hazard.  Balls landing in the center of the front half of the green with 7-9 irons will slowly trickle left into the hazard.  The green doesn't appear to have that much slope from the fairway.

I thought the same course

I am forced to play this course every year.  That is a bizarre hole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Is Pinehurst No. 2 fifth hole similar, but with sand?  The front left slopes into the bunker. My caddie said he knew I was de-greening my putt when he saw my 1" backswing..........

[Jon Cavalier]

Jeff:

Thanks for bringing back great memories. My first time on No. 2, I hit a putt from back right to a front left pin that I thought was in. The ball almost stopped at the hole ... then kept rolling, and rolling, and rolling ... down into the fairway and into the bunker. My caddy said I got Pinehursted.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,


This is far worse because the slope is steeper, the water hazard unavoidable and the features and their interrelationship is unobservable from the DZ.


I like the tee shot which must carry an angled, deep water hazard, but the green is a shocker.


The course is east of the Mississippi and South of the Mason-Dixon Line.

[Mark Chaplin]

Poor design or modern super fast green that isn't suitable for an old hole?

[Jason Topp]

This sounds like the 17th at Valderama.  That one got pretty goofy at times.

[Phil McDade]

This sounds like the 17th at Valderama.  That one got pretty goofy at times.

That's the one I was thinking of -- thanks Jason (I get those "V" courses mixed up sometimes....)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not in Kentucky

[Keith Grande]

Reminds me of a course in the southern portion of North Carolina, Leopard's Chase, the #2 hole, a par 3 of about 140 yards, with a swamp/water on the right. From the tee there appears to be undulation on the green.  My 9 iron was a few yards short of the mid-back right pin location, which checked, spun right, and proceeded to roll off the green, down the hill and into the water.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not in North Carolina

[Wayne_Kozun]

This sounds like the 17th at Valderama.  That one got pretty goofy at times.

And I am pretty sure that it is east of the Mississippi and south of the M-D line.

[Howard Riefs]

Reminds me of how Streamsong Blue #7 is maintained. Severe slope on the left center of the green feeds directly toward the water near the entry path.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This sounds like the 17th at Valderama.  That one got pretty goofy at times.

And I am pretty sure that it is east of the Mississippi and south of the M-D line.
 
Wrong continent

[Patrick_Mucci]

Reminds me of how Streamsong Blue #7 is maintained. Severe slope on the left center of the green feeds directly toward the water near the entry path.
 
"Toward" and "into" are distinctly different.

[Zack Molnar]

Pat,


Do you have a problem in general with greens where a shot into the middle of the green will be funneled off? Or do you find greens problematic only when shots are funneled into a hazard of some sort (tall grass, severe bunker, water) where a significant recovery effort would be required?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,


Do you have a problem in general with greens where a shot into the middle of the green will be funneled off?


Could you cite five greens where an approach shot hit to the middle of that green is funneled off that green  ?


Or do you find greens problematic only when shots are funneled into a hazard of some sort (tall grass, severe bunker, water) where a significant recovery effort would be required?


I don't consider tall grass to be a hazard.

I like greens where marginal and poorly planned/executed shots are funneled off the green into bunkers, tightly mowed areas or rough where recovery is possible.

In the situation I described, there is no recovery as the ball is directed into an adjacent water hazard.

In addition, good shots, not marginal shots are penalized due to the very steep nature and invasiveness of the slope.

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