News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« on: August 10, 2015, 01:02:29 PM »
In 1950 Ben Hogan wins the US Open at Merion - his winnings - $4k.  The purse was $15k
In 2013 Justin Rose  wins the US Open at Merion - his winnings - $1.44mil.  The purse was $8mil.

 
With inflation, it's 38 times more valuable to win today than it was in 1950, maybe that's why it takes twice as long to get around.


Pace of Play at Merion in 1950:


« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 10:25:10 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2015, 01:35:37 PM »
The compensation for professional athletes in all sports has experienced a similar boom over the past 60 years. In golf I am not sure there is a correlation between that and pace of play issues.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2015, 01:44:24 PM »
Would you say baseball is slower because the players earn more than they did 60 years ago?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2015, 02:18:46 PM »
The compensation for professional athletes in all sports has experienced a similar boom over the past 60 years. In golf I am not sure there is a correlation between that and pace of play issues.


I'm not so sure there isn't, especially when one or two missed putts can cost a player a win and 1mil+.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2015, 02:28:09 PM »
Would you say baseball is slower because the players earn more than they did 60 years ago?


Too much BS going on in baseball to figure that out.  :)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2015, 02:28:29 PM »
That's about the same rate of increase as baseball.  The top paid baseball player in 1953 was Ted Williams at $85,000.  The top paid player in 2013 was A-Rod at $29M.  So pay has gone up 341X (on a nominal basis).  Rose made 360X what Hogan made.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2015, 02:41:32 PM »
"I'm not so sure there isn't, especially when one or two missed putts can cost a player a win and 1mil+"

Jim K. -

On the other hand, one could argue that, in the old days, winning or finishing in the top 5 was almost imperative just to cover your travel expenses for the week. Nowadays, a tour golfer who consistently finishes in the top 25 over the course of a season on tour can make a very, very nice living.

We regularly read items (here!) about how today's pros are spoiled and there is not that much incentive on them any more to win.  There was way more pressure, financially at least, to win in the old days than there is today.   

There are likely other, more relevant reasons for the development of slow play. Remember, coincidence is not causation. :)

DT
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 02:45:35 PM by David_Tepper »

Brent Hutto

Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2015, 02:54:06 PM »
Would you say baseball is slower because the players earn more than they did 60 years ago?


Too much BS going on in baseball to figure that out.  :)


Maybe baseball has cricket envy. They can't take 3 days to play a game but at least they can shoot for 3 hours!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2015, 04:32:22 PM »
I'm with Jim on principle on this one.
 
I think its "routine" that has had the biggest impact whether it be golf or baseball.  Players are taught at a very early age that doing the same thing, pre-shot/pitch everytime, leads to more consistency. And in the time-Less sports like golf and baseball I'm not surprised to see players take extra time to make sure they are ready for their next shot or pitch.
If the PGA tour or baseball was serious about fixing this, it wouldn't be very difficult with shot clocks/fines.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2015, 04:37:35 PM »
There are likely other, more relevant reasons for the development of slow play. Remember, coincidence is not causation. :)

DT




I'd agree there are  'other, relevant reasons' , but money is as relevant as any of them.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2015, 04:38:01 PM »
Kalen -

There is no doubt the pace of play is slower in pro golf and baseball than it used to be. For pro golf, the question Jim K.  is raising is whether or not it is due to much higher prize money now on offer.

DT 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2015, 04:41:14 PM »
Kalen -

There is no doubt the pace of play is slower in pro golf and baseball than it used to be. For pro golf, the question Jim K.  is raising is whether or not it is due to much higher prize money now on offer.

DT

David_T,
 
I think it does, but perhaps only implicitly....because with few exceptions they have all have an army of swing coaches, mind coaches, equipment peeps, and everyone else and their brother giving them input on how to swing the club and having a pre-shot routine which leads to slowing things down, more and more and more.  And these peeps are around because they can afford to have them around.
 
60 years ago, nobody had this kind of staff, and even if they wanted it, they couldn't afford it.....
 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 04:46:18 PM by Kalen Braley »

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2015, 04:44:32 PM »
I guess the slowness due to crowd control was more of an issue since gallery ropes (or patron ropes in this instance) were first used at Augusta in 1954.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2015, 09:14:30 PM »
Right year, wrong course.  Baltusrol, U.S. Open...

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2015, 10:22:57 PM »
Right year, wrong course.  Baltusrol, U.S. Open...


1  2 many 3s  :o , a typo on my part -  the Merion article was dated correctly.   ;) 


Amended.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 10:28:53 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Peter Pallotta

Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2015, 11:03:16 PM »
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools instead. Decades of swing coaches and psychologists and fitness trainers, and what have you got: athletes who tear a knee ligament stepping out of the shower, golfers who can't tie their shoelaces without a routine, and twenty-somethings with the demeanours (and frazzled nerves) of old men. Byron Nelson, Sam Snead, Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, even Ben Hogan: they knew it was a game, and the kind of a game that, once you'd learned the fundamentals, was elegant in its simplicity. It isn't complicated, or even very hard: you step up, you see the shot, you settle in, and you hit it (all in about 15 seconds): drives, approaches, chips and putts. All the rest of the time/effort is just comprised of "stories": stories that we tell ourselves to avoid the simplicity (and randomness) of the game, so frightened have we become of not being in control. And the coaches and psychologists and fitness trainers encourage these stories, and try to make everyone believe they are true, because that's how they make their livings. Never mind that Arnold Palmer and Sam Snead played golf to stay in shape to play golf (and played forever and never got hurt); or that there's no way Jim Furyk or Dustin Johnson or Webb Simpson makes as many important putts as Billy Casper or Lee Trevino or Bobby Jones did. No, never mind all that: the stories are what's most important. Luckily for the "wise", however, the "fools" are making so much money now that they can keep them employed and spinning their tales for years to come.
Peter
PS - It seems that Brent has left us, as he is now a guest. I am sorry to see him go.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 11:13:32 PM by PPallotta »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2015, 05:56:44 AM »

PS - It seems that Brent has left us, as he is now a guest. I am sorry to see him go.



Noticed this as well--a big loss.Hopefully only a temporary vacation.

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2015, 01:08:10 AM »
Swing coaches and sports psychologists aside, I've never understood why a preshot routine required any more than a stepping up to the ball and hitting it. If the idea is to gain consistent repetition, it would seem the less one needs to repeat, the better.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2015, 06:46:10 AM »
Yardages. Yardage books. Pacing things off. Professional caddies.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six Decades Make Quite A Difference
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2015, 06:50:00 AM »
The courses are about half a mile longer, so there are ten minutes more to walk.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.