A suggestion..... The surprise of Mid Pines

[Steve_Lovett]

MP is the clear winner in the 'charm' category. 


The 15th at PN is just not a good hole.

Carl,


While I do prefer MP to PN, the 3rd at MP (IMO) is the worst hole on either course. It is just bad...

The tee shot at #3 at Mid Pines is awful and the fairway is awkward and soggy. The approach and green are interesting, however. I think the drive on 15 at Pine Needles is good, but the hole falls apart after that - running between below-average homes.  The are the worst holes on each course - agreed.

[James Brown]

Did my first trip to Pinehurst about 3 weeks ago.  Played Mid-Pines on a day when it was 95 and the fairways were really soggy from recent rains and what looked like likely over-watering.  Wonderful layout and lots of interesting shots.

[Sean_A]

To be honest, Pine Needles was a very big disappointment.  Its bigger and bolder than Mid-Pines, but without any real effect.  I think the resort missed the boat big time with the last redo...very limited in scope.  They need to go back to the drawing board and get serious about creating/reviving an identity for PN...it should be far better.  As an enjoyable day out, MP wins hands down and it still needs work with tree removal and the 3rd hole...what a mess.  I also think it may be worthwhile to leave the Ross blueprint by enlarging some of the sandy waste areas to cover more than one hole and cut through fairways rather than frame fairways.  This would of course mean tree removal, but more lovely views would be opened up and the one drawback of the course can be mitigated...the feeling of left-right bunkering throughout the course.


Ciao

[BCowan]

Ben,


MP is a very nice course. The work Kyle did there is super. But a 9? On what scale?

Wyatt

9 out of 10 all day.  I have MP over Inverness, Franklin Hills, #2, and Orchard Lake.  Like I said with more tree removal and letting the fairways dormant or just around the green area you would really see the place shine in season.  You wouldn't catch me there in July or August...   Why is MP not a 9 in your book? 

[Jay Mickle]

What is Kyle Franz's background? His work was brilliant.

Kyle started with Tom Doak at Pacific Dunes and and since has shaped for C&C at #2, Gil Hanse at the Olympic course in Rio among many other projects. see http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/kyle-franz-june-2011/
I have known Kyle since he started his work at MP and enjoy seeing the course through his eyes. He continues to tweek the course on a regular basis. Evidence a new fairway bunker on 15 shown on the 1939 aerial of the course.
As a member at MP/PN I play MP (150+ x/yr) unless I can't get a tee time or play with friends at PN. MP never seems to grow old.

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, can you discuss your rating criteria just a bit so that we understand what your "9" really says about Mid Pines? I am both amazed and humbled by the number of courses you and I have both played. For reference, would you mind slapping a quick 1-10 rating on the following:


Canterbury
Elks Run
Kirtland
Kingsley
Lookout Mountain
Pinehurst #2
Piqua

[BCowan]

Canterbury-6
Kirtland-8
Piqua-4
Elks Run- cartballer track, not really rateable. 5 for that

Lookout Mtn-8
Kingsley-8
#2-just walked post renovation 8.9

[Chris Buie]

Some of you may find these Mid Pines drawings interesting. They are from the 1950's, I think.





Regarding Pine Needles, here's what Robert (Cypress Point) Hunter had to say:

Having pursued for a number of years the delightful occupation of visiting the best golf courses in this country and Europe, it is a real pleasure to find here in my old running ground an ideal Golf Course. The design of the holes, the construction work and the natural contours combine to produce at Pine Needles - I do not hesitate to say it - one of the finest golf courses, but I doubt if he has done anything better than this.

I've been playing that course for forty years and, honestly, there has not been one single time I wasn't delighted with it. I understand it could be dressed up better and people have their own preferences but, for whatever it's worth, to me it is truly fantastic.

[Steve_Lovett]

Some of you may find these Mid Pines drawings interesting. They are from the 1950's, I think.





Regarding Pine Needles, here's what Robert (Cypress Point) Hunter had to say:

Having pursued for a number of years the delightful occupation of visiting the best golf courses in this country and Europe, it is a real pleasure to find here in my old running ground an ideal Golf Course. The design of the holes, the construction work and the natural contours combine to produce at Pine Needles - I do not hesitate to say it - one of the finest golf courses, but I doubt if he has done anything better than this.

I've been playing that course for forty years and, honestly, there has not been one single time I wasn't delighted with it. I understand it could be dressed up better and people have their own preferences but, for whatever it's worth, to me it is truly fantastic.

Those are great diagrams for Mid Pines. I don't mean to diminish the quality of Pine Needles - it's wonderful - only to praise the upgraded quality of Mid Pines which in my opinion has surprisingly occasioned it to surpass Pine Needles. 

[Chris Buie]

Oh, no problemo Steve. Pine Needles was always considered the best of the two growing up. But Kyle (and that extremely talented group) did such a stunning job that few chose PN over MP now. They were conceived in tandem as Knollwood No. 1 and No. 2 with a third course seriously considered, as well. When I was writing the book about the era when Ross did his work there I assumed Mid Pines was meant to be the charming/fun course while Pine Needles was meant to be more of a champ course. Wrong! Mid Pines was considered to be brutal when it opened. Needless to say, the first draft of that chapter went in the trash bin!

[BCowan]

Chris,

Great post.  The pond on 3 looks as though it was moved way left.  Do u know the reason?  Expanded irrigation pond is my guess.

[Steve_Lovett]

Chris,

Great post.  The pond on 3 looks as though it was moved way left.  Do u know the reason?  Expanded irrigation pond is my guess.

The back side of the pond on 3 looks raised above fairway level. It feels artificial and awkward, and you can't see what lies along the right side of the fairway (it's not good - and always squishy).

[Chris Buie]

Thanks Ben. I think, as with a LOT of places in the area there was originally a stream with swampy areas. If I remember correctly before the course was built the stream went all the way across 3,5,1 and 18. Obviously, they did dam it up on the 3rd to where it is at some point - early 60's?. Not sure if it was irrigation - some practical reason I don't recall.
I'm pretty sure there's a plan to deal with that area but it is not inexpensive. Not sure when that will happen. Personally, I'm just glad with all the work that did get done there.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I was in Pinehurst 2 weeks ago -sounds like there was a whole group of GCA'ers floating around there. Wish I would have know, would have like to meet up with some of you.

As a first-timer to the area I was boring and just did the resort courses. Can't wait to get back and try Mid Pines, Pine Needles and Dormie.

[Steve_Lovett]

I was in Pinehurst 2 weeks ago -sounds like there was a whole group of GCA'ers floating around there. Wish I would have know, would have like to meet up with some of you.

As a first-timer to the area I was boring and just did the resort courses. Can't wait to get back and try Mid Pines, Pine Needles and Dormie.

I can find a better golf experience at any number of local courses (and my home club) as compared with most of the courses at the Pinehurst Resort. Outside of #2 and maybe #4, 7, and 8 many better options in the area exist at Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Southern Pines, Tobacco Road, Dormie Club, Country Club of North Carolina (if you have access), and Forest Creek (if you have access).


But - the PLACE is special. The village of Pinehurst is great and Southern Pines has a quaint downtown area bifurcated by the train tracks. I never tire of it - but wouldn't find it worth it to venture deep into the 2nd or 3rd tier of golf in that area. I hope you're able to return soon.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Steve,

I played 2, 4 & 8 and enjoyed the ambience and service of the Carolina. But next time will be Pine Needles or Pine Crest Inn, and some of courses you mentioned.

Found in interesting that #2 was a lot greener than I expected in late July. The USGA must have really tried to burn that sucker up.

[BHoover]

I just don't understand the obsession or need to rank courses on some sort of 10-point scale.

[Rees Milikin]

I just don't understand the obsession or need to rank courses on some sort of 10-point scale.

I feel ya, I like 100 point scales better.

[BHoover]

I just don't understand the obsession or need to rank courses on some sort of 10-point scale.

I feel ya, I like 100 point scales better.

That wasn't what I meant, but thanks.

[Greg Holland]

Chris,


Did you post vintage aerials of Pine Needles on here?  I searched but could not find them, but have a vague recollection that you did.  Would love to see what Kyle would be working with if a restoration happened.


Thanks.

[Carl Rogers]

To be honest, Pine Needles was a very big disappointment.  Its bigger and bolder than Mid-Pines, but without any real effect.  I think the resort missed the boat big time with the last redo...very limited in scope.  They need to go back to the drawing board and get serious about creating/reviving an identity for PN...it should be far better.  As an enjoyable day out, MP wins hands down and it still needs work with tree removal and the 3rd hole...what a mess.  I also think it may be worthwhile to leave the Ross blueprint by enlarging some of the sandy waste areas to cover more than one hole and cut through fairways rather than frame fairways.  This would of course mean tree removal, but more lovely views would be opened up and the one drawback of the course can be mitigated...the feeling of left-right bunkering throughout the course.
Ciao

Absolutely correct.  At MP, they need to extrapolate & finish what has been started and really drive the idea of the connectedness of the sand-waste areas home.  Some of the holes are unnecessarily cut off from each other. .... Why is the 9th hole so isolated?

[Chris Buie]

Here you go Greg - courtesy of the Hagley Museum. 1933, I think.

[Steve_Lovett]

Here you go Greg - courtesy of the Hagley Museum. 1933, I think.

So the old Knollwood building was the clubhouse site, and today's 18th hole was the original opening hole, is that correct? Was Knollwood a hotel in its day? It's an impressive building.

[Andrew Buck]

It certainly looks that way (RE: Knollwood and routing).  It's also great to see how few trees and wide open the property was in the day. 

Also, the greens appear tiny.

[Rees Milikin]

Here you go Greg - courtesy of the Hagley Museum. 1933, I think.

So the old Knollwood building was the clubhouse site, and today's 18th hole was the original opening hole, is that correct? Was Knollwood a hotel in its day? It's an impressive building.

Steve, the detailed story of how the Pinehurst area went from a sandy wasteland to the home of American golf is fully covered in Chris Buie's book "The Early Days of Pinehurst".  I would highly recommend giving it a look b/c it is very informative source for Pinehurst area golf. http://www.amazon.com/Early-Days-Pinehurst-Chris-Buie/dp/1497543762