A suggestion..... The surprise of Mid Pines

[Steve_Lovett]

I visited Pinehurst this past weekend and was able to play 3 wonderful rounds of golf at Pinehurst #2, Pine Needles, and Mid Pines. I've played each at least a few times before, but I hadn't played either #2 or Mid Pines since their recent restoration work.


By far the greatest surprise of the weekend was Mid Pines. The place is stunning. I've always loved the way the holes move about the property and have enjoyed the golf course, but it always felt as though it was a diamond in the rough, receiving less attention than Pine Needles across the street.


Today - I would consider Mid Pines as the class of Pinehurst-area golf, behind course #2 - standing above Pine Needles or any of the other resort courses, and in the same class with both Forest Creek courses. Any trip to Pinehurst should include a round of golf at Mid Pines - the absence of houses with the exception of a few homes around the perimeter and improvements to greens, bunkers, re-creation of native sandy areas, and selective tree removal are spectacular. It's worth going out of your way to play it!!! [size=78%] [/size]

[Carl Rogers]

I have played Mid Pines now 3 times, once prior to remodeling and twice after.  Anytime I am in the area, it is a must play .... need to get over to #2.
I do not know how to compare MP to Dormie or Tobacco Road. They seem to be uniquely different.
I agree MP is a cut above PN.  See other thread about favorite vs best course.

[Tyler Kearns]

Steve,


The renovation/restoration work completed at Mid-Pines in excellent.  In stark contrast to Pine Needles, which feels like a parkland layout for the most part, Mid-Pines has captured the essence of the Carolina sandhills with the golf course truly feeling like it belongs and complements the existing landscape.


TK

[Steve_Lovett]

I have played Mid Pines now 3 times, once prior to remodeling and twice after.  Anytime I am in the area, it is a must play .... need to get over to #2.
I do not know how to compare MP to Dormie or Tobacco Road. They seem to be uniquely different.
I agree MP is a cut above PN.  See other thread about favorite vs best course.

Tobacco Road is a unique place and hold some nostalgia for me (I made my last hole in one there), but has usually been soggy in my experience. The bent greens and less well-drained soil diminish the experience when compared with Mid Pines or others in the Sandhills.


Mid Pines is so good that I wouldn't mind playing it every day... I haven't made it to Dormie yet, but it would have to be pretty special to compete with Mid Pines.


Pine Needles has a site that is more grand in scale and it could improve dramatically with a more native restoration, but some holes (especially 15-17) are compromised by housing in a way that Mid-Pines isn't.


If you haven't been to #2, go. It's a remarkable improvement to an already special golf course. I was skeptical about the changes to holes 4 and 5, but after playing them I think the changes were for the best.

[Andrew Buck]

Steve,


The renovation/restoration work completed at Mid-Pines in excellent.  In stark contrast to Pine Needles, which feels like a parkland layout for the most part, Mid-Pines has captured the essence of the Carolina sandhills with the golf course truly feeling like it belongs and complements the existing landscape.


TK

I thought Mid Pines was off the charts good.  I think I liked #2 more, but some other factors (weather and not being overserved at the Pine Crest the night before) may have been a part of that equation.  Can't wait to get back, but it's just a really fun golf course.

I agree it really sticks out over Pine Needles, which is a very good course, just felt more like a northern Ross Country Club.  In my mind, I'd have rated the courses #2 > Mid Pines >>> Dormie >>>> Pine Needles >>>> Tobacco Road, and I didn't dislike Tobacco Road.

My experience was opposite of Steve's.  The thing I liked about Tobacco Road was it was playing firm and fast, and had the ultradwarf greens.  I liked it, but would probably stick to other options in the future unless it was a longer trip.  Pine Needles played really soft the day I was there, even though it hadn't rained.  Despite having a similar "scorecard" yardage from the back tees as #2 and Dormie, it felt about 3 - 400 yards longer.

[Will Spivey]

Like some others here, I LOVE Mid Pines.  For me, a mid-handicapper, it's my #1 choice in the Pinehurst area.  #2 is a "better" tournament course and the history and ambiance are hard to beat.  Also, longer players may find Mid Pines too short, but for me it is the most fun, by far, in the area.  I would rate the courses there in this order:


Mid Pines
#2
Dormie (could be awesome with a little better budget)
Pine Needles


Mid Pines is a "can't miss" when in the area.

[Rees Milikin]

When Mark Pritchett and I were there early this year, we ran into Kyle Franz and he told us that he was meeting with the owners about doing a similar restoration to Pine Needles.  Now if only Southern Pines could get a little touch up.

[Carl Rogers]

.....  Now if only Southern Pines could get a little touch up.

Having grown up on very modest courses, SP could almost be a throw back reminder to my youth.  Agree a little bit of work there would elevate it significantly.  If it were located elsewhere, it would get a lot more positive attention.  The strength of SP are the par 3's, imo.

[Ryan Taylor]

Rees, I hope PN undergoes a similar restoration. It really is a special piece of property and easily belongs among the upper echelon of classic golf courses in America.

[Steve_Lovett]

I was limited to three rounds of golf this trip - and was lucky to play the three I did given the number of junior golfers in Pinehurst for the US Kids World Championships.


I haven't yet played Southern Pines, but next visit I will substitute it for Pine Needles - and will also try to play the Dormie Club. Mid-Pines is a must.


What is Kyle Franz's background? His work was brilliant.

[Brent Hutto]

I was limited to three rounds of golf this trip - and was lucky to play the three I did given the number of junior golfers in Pinehurst for the US Kids World Championships.


I haven't yet played Southern Pines, but next visit I will substitute it for Pine Needles - and will also try to play the Dormie Club. Mid-Pines is a must.


What is Kyle Franz's background? His work was brilliant.

If you'd like to see Southern Pines I've no doubt you'll find it an enjoyable and affordable round. But either I somehow failed to miss its finer points or else this forum gives it a *ton* of credit for the low green fee. I would never skip a round at Pine Needles or Mid-Pines to play at Southern Pines instead. It's a well routed walk through typical Sandhills terrain with a handful of nice holes (especially a couple of great approach shots). But not a patch on Pine Needles in my estimation.

[Steve_Lovett]

I was limited to three rounds of golf this trip - and was lucky to play the three I did given the number of junior golfers in Pinehurst for the US Kids World Championships.


I haven't yet played Southern Pines, but next visit I will substitute it for Pine Needles - and will also try to play the Dormie Club. Mid-Pines is a must.


What is Kyle Franz's background? His work was brilliant.

If you'd like to see Southern Pines I've no doubt you'll find it an enjoyable and affordable round. But either I somehow failed to miss its finer points or else this forum gives it a *ton* of credit for the low green fee. I would never skip a round at Pine Needles or Mid-Pines to play at Southern Pines instead. It's a well routed walk through typical Sandhills terrain with a handful of nice holes (especially a couple of great approach shots). But not a patch on Pine Needles in my estimation.

Good to know... Of course, prior to the improvements to Mid Pines I considered it "tired" and would've placed below the upper echelon of Pinehurst-area courses - well behind Pinehurst #2, #4, #8, Pine Needles, CCNC, Forest Creek (both) and Tobacco Road. Now I think Mid Pines is the best of the bunch, with the exception of #2 and shoulder to shoulder with Forest Creek.


With care and attention/improvement could Southern Pines stature similarly rise?

[Brent Hutto]

Well I haven't played Mid-Pines since its renovation. So it's possible my own opinion of Pine Needles being the clearly superior of the two might change now that the little course next door has been freshened up.


To my recollection conditioning was no particular issue for me at Southern Pines (played there twice a couple years apart). It was probably in as good a shape as Mid-Pines back then but my memory is that Southern Pines felt a bit more repetitive off the tee and never engaged my sense of "rhythm" to the round, as we're discussing in that other thread recently.


The biggest pluses to Mid-Pines are the intimacy of the property and the variety of holes while still feeling like there's a good flow to the round. Across the street at Pine Needles the variety is there but in place of "intimacy" there's a much large sense of scale to the ground movement. Also feels a bit more wide-open off the tee on most holes.


Southern Pines doesn't have the intimacy of Mid-Pines but it's not quite as much of a Big Boy Course feel as Pine Needles. It is easy for me to imagine big-time golf tournaments being played at Pine Needles when I'm playing there. Southern Pines is more of a comfortable member's type course but not nearly as "comfortable" to me as Mid-Pines.


BTW, forgive me if I've mis-remembered some aspects of the three courses. It's been the better part of a decade since my last visit and perhaps certain elements have faded from memory or I've even juxtaposed features from one course with my recollection of another.

[Carl Rogers]

Steve,
What are your favorite holes at MP?
Mine are 4, 7, 8,11,12*,13 & 16
*#1 favorite

[Jason Thurman]

Good to know... Of course, prior to the improvements to Mid Pines I considered it "tired" and would've placed below the upper echelon of Pinehurst-area courses - well behind Pinehurst #2, #4, #8, Pine Needles, CCNC, Forest Creek (both) and Tobacco Road. Now I think Mid Pines is the best of the bunch, with the exception of #2 and shoulder to shoulder with Forest Creek.

Steve, this is the part I struggle with when it comes to the Mid Pines lovers. To me, the course is solid but heavily bolstered by its presentation. It's a 4 in a perfectly fitting cocktail dress. Your thoughts on it pre-renovation seem to confirm as much. I just don't think replacing rough with native sandy scrub, reshaping a few aging bunkers, and reclaiming a bit of putting surface is enough to elevate a tired course to a great one. The renovation work is unquestionably outstanding, and I applaud what Kyle Franz's team did. I never hesitate to recommend Mid Pines to friends visiting the area. But it's still the same design and routing it was before, and I still don't think that design and routing stands with the real big boys in Pinehurst.


How many people would still prefer Mid Pines over Pine Needles if you surrounded the latter with the same sexy sandy scrub that they have across the street? Pine Needles, for my money, has better holes on a more enjoyable routing that traverses a bigger and brawnier property with more variety and fewer clunky holes. The fact that Mid Pines has a more rugged and attractive visual appearance just isn't enough to vault it into what is admittedly a pretty stout top tier of courses in the Pinehurst area. On the contrary, I find the shots at Pine Needles to be as compelling as any in Pinehurst even if the surroundings look a little sterile.


As I've said before, Mid Pines is a 5 in a sexy cocktail dress while Pine Needles is a 7 wearing workout clothes.

[Andrew Buck]

How many people would still prefer Mid Pines over Pine Needles if you surrounded the latter with the same sexy sandy scrub that they have across the street? Pine Needles, for my money, has better holes on a more enjoyable routing that traverses a bigger and brawnier property with more variety and fewer clunky holes. The fact that Mid Pines has a more rugged and attractive visual appearance just isn't enough to vault it into what is admittedly a pretty stout top tier of courses in the Pinehurst area. On the contrary, I find the shots at Pine Needles to be as compelling as any in Pinehurst even if the surroundings look a little sterile.


As I've said before, Mid Pines is a 5 in a sexy cocktail dress while Pine Needles is a 7 wearing workout clothes.

I had never played Mid Pines prior to the renovation, however it's hard for me to see Pine Needles as superior at this moment, and I think it goes beyond the scruffy exterior, although it may all be "attire" and conditioning. 

-  Played one day apart in the same weather, there was a noticeable difference in playing surfaces.  While this makes sense with the bent greens in the summer, which were much, much softer, it extended to surrounds and and fairways.
-  By no means did PN play like a modern housing project course, but you can't remove the fact that it plays through houses, and on several holes (8, 9, 15 - 17) it negatively impacts the feel and flow, to me. 
-  The views just aren't the same, with the exception of 14 tee at PN, I never got the feel where you could see multiple holes and have views, etc.
-  I thought MP was just more deceptive, and demanding, other than the length.  For example, the 4th hole I took a driver and hit it to the front edge/fringe, then proceeded to putt off the green.  Misjudging putts by that much didn't seem possible at PN.  The sloping fairways at MP also made me think off the tee more, sometime requiring a shaped shot, or challenging trees to get to the right "slots". 

I will say the first 7 holes at PN are really, really good, too bad they didn't play firmer. 

[Mark Pritchett]

Everyone loves a horse race, however for me I really like both PN and MP.  I do prefer one over the other (barely) but I'll keep that to myself and look forward to enjoying both courses on my next visit. 

[Bruce Wellmon]

While I agree MP is much improved by its recent wonderful work, and I agree that PN would benefit from similar work, I maintain the bones at Southern Pines are the best of the 3. Just my 2 cents. Carry on.

[BCowan]

Both courses are great, and you couldn't find a better 36 hole combo.  PN needs much needed tree removal by half the greens.  PN has some weaker holes such as #6, #10, and #11 imo.  The course does have more scale, but that means nothing.  With much needed tree removal PN would play firmer in early spring and late fall.  PN is a 7.

MP was a 7 prior to the renovation and is a 9 now.  It still needs tree removal and the 3rd fairway needs to be sand capped, tree removal to the left and right, plus more drainage.  MP opening hole is one of the best.  I think #5 and #15 would make much better par 4's.  Forgetting the rugged blast out look, MP is much improved, the routing was fantastic from the get go.  Inside of 150 yards MP is tougher than #2 IMO.  The shots into the greens have been greatly enhanced.  Many reasons, maint. meld and shaping of bunkers.  MP has no weak holes, just a few half par 5's that would make much better long Par's.  The nuances around the greens and with the firm green conditions day in and day out it makes for great short game options around the greens.  Hopefully they continue with the tree removal.  It would be amazing to play MP with the same maintenance meld as #2.  Letting their fairways go dormant or at least 20 yards in front of the green (then spray paint that area).  MP is a 9 period in my book. 

[Carl Rogers]

MP is the clear winner in the 'charm' category. 


The 15th at PN is just not a good hole.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Ben,


MP is a very nice course. The work Kyle did there is super. But a 9? On what scale?

[Matthew Sander]

MP is the clear winner in the 'charm' category. 


The 15th at PN is just not a good hole.

Carl,


While I do prefer MP to PN, the 3rd at MP (IMO) is the worst hole on either course. It is just bad...

[BCowan]

Matt,

   I have grown to really like the 3rd hole at MP, i used to think it was a weaker hole.  The fairway is often soggy when playing it.  The new back tee has actually made it easier for me, from old tee 3 wood was the play for me, but i seldom resisted the urge to take a driver.  The fairway is one the most generous on the course.  It does have a forced carry element to it, but if you are playing the proper tees it isn't too bad.  The 2nd shot into the green is solid.  Going over in 2 will give one a dicey chance at par.  I can see the carry off the tee being an issue, for it's something i don't like.  The hole has a lot of quirk in a good way imo. 

  What makes the hole bad iyo?

[Steve_Lovett]

Steve,
What are your favorite holes at MP?
Mine are 4, 7, 8,11,12*,13 & 16
*#1 favorite

Carl,


I think 1, 2, 4, 10, 12, 13, 16, and 18 are my favorite holes - but other than 3 being weird off the tee and 9 being an awkward dogleg I can't think of a weak hole amongst the bunch.

[Steve_Lovett]

Good to know... Of course, prior to the improvements to Mid Pines I considered it "tired" and would've placed below the upper echelon of Pinehurst-area courses - well behind Pinehurst #2, #4, #8, Pine Needles, CCNC, Forest Creek (both) and Tobacco Road. Now I think Mid Pines is the best of the bunch, with the exception of #2 and shoulder to shoulder with Forest Creek.

Steve, this is the part I struggle with when it comes to the Mid Pines lovers. To me, the course is solid but heavily bolstered by its presentation. It's a 4 in a perfectly fitting cocktail dress. Your thoughts on it pre-renovation seem to confirm as much. I just don't think replacing rough with native sandy scrub, reshaping a few aging bunkers, and reclaiming a bit of putting surface is enough to elevate a tired course to a great one. The renovation work is unquestionably outstanding, and I applaud what Kyle Franz's team did. I never hesitate to recommend Mid Pines to friends visiting the area. But it's still the same design and routing it was before, and I still don't think that design and routing stands with the real big boys in Pinehurst.


How many people would still prefer Mid Pines over Pine Needles if you surrounded the latter with the same sexy sandy scrub that they have across the street? Pine Needles, for my money, has better holes on a more enjoyable routing that traverses a bigger and brawnier property with more variety and fewer clunky holes. The fact that Mid Pines has a more rugged and attractive visual appearance just isn't enough to vault it into what is admittedly a pretty stout top tier of courses in the Pinehurst area. On the contrary, I find the shots at Pine Needles to be as compelling as any in Pinehurst even if the surroundings look a little sterile.


As I've said before, Mid Pines is a 5 in a sexy cocktail dress while Pine Needles is a 7 wearing workout clothes.

I think the greens at Mid Pines are miles more interesting with more intricate interior contours and surrounding slopes/contours than those at Pine Needles. Pine Needles is bigger, but the routing - the way the golf course moves and returns around the property at Mid Pines is brilliant and superior to Pine Needles. It's not just about appearance - it's maintenance, strategy, and shotmaking requirements are better in my opinion.