Great Golf Courses with 2 (or less) P5's

[John Cowden]

Pasatiempo, in fact, has three par 5s--nos. 6, 9, and 13.  At various times in its history, nos. 1 and 2 have also played as par 5s. 

[Bill_McBride]

Pasatiempo, Old White at Greenbrier and Aronimink all have only two par 5s.

Jon, when it opened, Pasatiempo had five par 5s!   Now it has three, 6, 9 and 13.  One and two were par 5s on the original card, with the second tee behind the entrance road. 


EDIT:  sorry JC, I see our posts crossed. 

[Bill_McBride]

Royal Cinque Ports (Deal) has only two par 5s... 3 & 5.

There used to be three, but the powers that be just converted #16 into a par four.

 

[Guy Nicholson]

Just played a lovely one the other day -- Colt's Toronto Golf Club.


http://www.torontogolfclub.com/Golf-Course/Colt-Course-(1)/Colt-Course-(1).aspx

[Alex Miller]

Elie has none! It's a great course in my book.

[John Cowden]

Thanks, Bill.  Gotta keep our history alive.


Alex, I couldn't agree more.  It's a must play on every trip to the Kingdom.  16 par 4s, but that matters not a whit. 

[Michael Goldstein]

Aldeburgh also has zero and is a solid course.


Kevin, one could argue that RMW only a maximum of 2 par fives.
Certainly the pro's play the 2nd and 12th as fours and, I'd suggest the 15th would be too. 
PS: they're still great holes!   

[Edward Moody]

Austin Golf Club has only two...no. 9 and no. 15.

[Thomas Dai]

A couple of others -

Huntercombe has 2, and one of them is seriously short.

Frilford[size=78%] Heath (Green) only has 1, and that's pretty short as well.[/size]



Cruden Bay only has 2.


Atb

[Ben Hollerbach]

The Ross Course in French Lick, IN has two par fives - 7 is reachable in two for some.  15 plays to over 620 yards from the tips.  Also has three very long par threes that must have been insanely challenging when the course first opened up until the advent of the ProV1.

When it first opened the 5th and 14th were also par 5's

[Scott Weersing]

Cavalier Golf Club in Virginia Beach is a Charles Banks/Lester George design with one par 5.


https://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/lester_george_completes_remodel_of_tornadodamaged_cavalier_gyc

[Nigel Islam]

The Ross Course in French Lick, IN has two par fives - 7 is reachable in two for some.  15 plays to over 620 yards from the tips.  Also has three very long par threes that must have been insanely challenging when the course first opened up until the advent of the ProV1.

When it first opened the 5th and 14th were also par 5's

The 14th was a par 5 but the 15th was a par 4. They changed those two holes when they put a retention pond in the late 60s. The 14th was still over 600 yards when first designed though I believe.

[Bill_McBride]

Elie has none! It's a great course in my book.

No par 5s but an incredibly diverse 16 par 4s!   They range in length from 256 yards to 450+, with 2, 7, 9, and 15 driveable depending on the wind. 

[Ben Hollerbach]

The Ross Course in French Lick, IN has two par fives - 7 is reachable in two for some.  15 plays to over 620 yards from the tips.  Also has three very long par threes that must have been insanely challenging when the course first opened up until the advent of the ProV1.

When it first opened the 5th and 14th were also par 5's

The 14th was a par 5 but the 15th was a par 4. They changed those two holes when they put a retention pond in the late 60s. The 14th was still over 600 yards when first designed though I believe.

I saw a scorecard from the 1924 PGA Championship that listed the 15th as a par 5 at 452 yards.

[Nigel Islam]

The Ross Course in French Lick, IN has two par fives - 7 is reachable in two for some.  15 plays to over 620 yards from the tips.  Also has three very long par threes that must have been insanely challenging when the course first opened up until the advent of the ProV1.

When it first opened the 5th and 14th were also par 5's

The 14th was a par 5 but the 15th was a par 4. They changed those two holes when they put a retention pond in the late 60s. The 14th was still over 600 yards when first designed though I believe.

I saw a scorecard from the 1924 PGA Championship that listed the 15th as a par 5 at 452 yards.

Sorry Ben, I just assumed it was a par 4. The Tufts archives stuff doesn't mention what par the holes were in 1917. So I stand corrected.

[Doug Siebert]

Isn't this essentially a list of great courses with par of 70 or less? The list of great courses with two or fewer par 5s and a par of 72 or more would be a lot shorter.

[Mark Pearce]

Elie has none! It's a great course in my book.

No par 5s but an incredibly diverse 16 par 4s!   They range in length from 256 yards to 450+, with 2, 7, 9, and 15 driveable depending on the wind.

2, 5, 6, 7, 10, 15 and 18 are all driveable by really long players.  For ordinary mortals, 7 is easily driveable in the prevailing wind (I have hit 5 iron and I'm no flatbelly) after which 10 is the next easiest.  12 is 465 yards from the back tees and is the longest par 4, though 9 often plays longer as it is straight into the prevailing wind.

[Chris DeNigris]

Isn't this essentially a list of great courses with par of 70 or less? The list of great courses with two or fewer par 5s and a par of 72 or more would be a lot shorter.

Not sure if this is tongue in cheek- but interesting.  Are there any courses with less than 2 short holes?

[Richard Fisher]

Isn't this thread (as originally stated) somewhat confused, certainly in a British context, by the gradual erosion during the 1960s of 'bogey' as the measure of a whole? For much of the modern (i.e. rubber-cored) era, The Old Course had not two three-shot holes, but three (the Road Hole was always a bogey five), and bogey overall 73. It's a truly instructive exercise to compare the original, 1962 bogey-defined edition of Frank Pennink's Golfer's Companion with its 1976 par-defined successor (Frank Pennink's Choice of Golf Courses). Certain celebrated low-par courses were actually very high-bogey links, and possessed much larger numbers of three-shot holes than would now be countenanced.

Just by way of comparison, to take three celebrated examples whose courses remained largely unchanged during the bogey-par transition

Rye (1962 men's bogey 72, 1976 men's par 67)
Aldeburgh (1962 bogey 72, 1976 par 68)
Harlech (1962 bogey 76, 1976 par 69 (and it had for a period in the late 1960s been par 68))

In another extreme example, Saunton (East) had a 1962 bogey of 77 and a 1976 par of 70).

This transition also of course coincided with almost 100% application of the (I think) CONGU guidelines about lengths of holes in relation to par, and the erosion of individual club discretion: all holes of between 250 and 475 yards were designated par four, regardless of design or context. The number of British clubs which apparently possessed, under this rubric, a hole of 476 yards in length was striking, and certainly exceeded greatly the number of clubs which possessed a hole of 474 yards...Any statistician will tell you that how you measure something always impacts the performance of what is being measured, and I do think that the reputation for difficulty enjoyed by all three of Rye, Aldeburgh and Harlech has increased as the usage of bogey has declined. In the present century, deviation from these strictures about the appropriate par for a given length of hole has (rightly) become once again more widespread, and whilst  golfers tend to notice championship venues with par fours of over 500 yards, less attention is focussed on those holes (like the 13th at Westward Ho!, a 442-yard par five, or the above-mentioned 16th at Huntercombe, a 468-yard par five) which have rather pleasingly gone the other way.

[Sean_A]

Richard


I am a big fan of bogey score and think it should be re-introduced along with a review of par for courses.  These two steps would take a big bite out of the "courses aren't challenging enough to be used for championships" argument and hopefully reduce the perceived (I say perceived because adding length is not nearly the best way to increase challenge for flat bellies) need to increase length. 


Think of a system where handiap players are now playing on a bogey card of 76 and expert players on a par card of 68.  It makes far more sense than what exists now. 


I wonder about Huntercombe's 16th.  It may not have been a par 5 originally.  I think the green was pushed back from the hollow by some 25 yards and there may have originally been more room to swing left around the hollow.  Notice the hollow left of the green...between that and fronting hollow was likely the fairway. Much of it is now rough and trees encroach on the left hollow.  It would be great to see the club clear out the left and extend the green to the fronting hollow.


Ciao

[Richard Fisher]

Dear Sean,

How very observant you are! The 16th at Huntercombe was always a bogey five (officially 493 yards at the opening of the course in May 1901, when it was the third hole as the course played for the first sixty years or so of its existence), but in John Moreton's Century of Golf at Huntercombe (2001) we are told that 'The mounds around the green were built up in 1971, under the guidance of CK Cotton, and nineteen yards added to retain the par rating'. Huntercombe must be one of very few courses to play two hundred yards shorter in its current form than at its opening 114 years ago, when the whole was a (very substantial) 6522 yards. Even allowing for improvement in measuring techniques, invariably reducing rather than enlarging the lengths of individual holes, this shrinkage is striking. Incidentally, I had the great pleasure of hosting GCA friend and ally David Normoyle at the 'Combe on Friday, and you and others will be glad to know that the work of clearing out the undergrowth continues: there is now (e.g.) a splendid clear view behind the first green, right over the Oxfordshire plain.

As for bogey, I am in complete agreement. One of the many splendid aspects of The Sacred Nine has been its adherence to both a professional par (35), and a bogey (37) for amateur and club play. Other clubs could usefully follow suit.

[Sean_A]

Richard


It could also be that in the change of handicapping system, the 16th became a par 4.  Its hard to believe it remained a par 5 for its entire existence.  Otherwise, why squeeze out more yards to that 475ish mark?

Yes, I think Huntercombe was considered very long in its day.  I have seen some old yardages and few stand out as remarkably changed.  Maybe you would care to offer your opinion #s 2, 3, 5 and 14.  I don't want to overly hijack this thread so reply using the link.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Is there already a CGA thread explaining the 'bogey' scoring system?

If so, perhaps someone would be good enough to post the relevant link or else perhaps
enlighten folk by explaining how it works and how it would operate in relation to the calculation of handicaps etc[size=78%].[/size]


atb

[Bill Satterfield]

Prairie Dunes with the 7th and 17th that appropriately run in opposite directions for wind consideration.

[Jeff Shelman]

Now that 18 has been converted into a brute of a par 4, Olympia Fields North has just two -- No. 1 and No. 15.