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mike_malone

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Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« on: July 10, 2015, 04:31:36 PM »
Using number 9 at Lancaster CC today as the tough hole. There is only one birdie today. Number 11 has several birdies but is an all world hole to me.
Great architecture is not tough golf. It is challenging and fun.
AKA Mayday

Phil McDade

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Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2015, 04:48:43 PM »
Mayday:


Is the 16th at Cypress Point the exception that proves the rule? :)




Doug Siebert

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Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2015, 05:12:00 PM »
Or 17th at TOC?

All this proves is that holes considered "great" aren't necessarily tough, but there are plenty of examples that can to be listed to show that some are. One of the things we here in GCA often praise as one of the criteria that makes a hole great is a wide variation in scoring. Whether that's the eagle-able par 5 that can easily lead to a double bogey with a misplayed shot, like the 15th at ANGC, or its the Road Hole where birdie is mostly a theory and typical scores range from 4 to 8 to "unlimited" for those of lesser skill who find their way in the eponymous bunker. A hole that's hard to birdie but rarely leads to scores higher than bogey for a good player is unlikely to be considered great unless it really excels in other criteria.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2015, 05:50:15 PM »
Scoring a 3 may be a better way to express this idea than birdie.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2015, 07:55:39 PM »
Right on Mike...and it's the main reason I prefer North Berwick over Muirfield. Hands down.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2015, 08:25:11 PM »
I  think par is irrelevant on the greatest holes.

WW

Sean_A

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Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2015, 05:01:06 AM »
I  think par is irrelevant on the greatest holes.

WW


When is par relevant for evaluating a hole?


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2015, 11:10:05 AM »
Wade and Sean...the Road Hole is a good illustration of both your points. Originally a par 5, it changed it's par designation and became  a very difficult par 4 sometime in the 60's (?). Tough par 4...easier par 5. Probably a par 4.5 either way.


Is par relevant for evaluating the hole, or is it irrelevant because it is a great hole?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 07:40:44 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2015, 05:08:35 PM »
Wade and Sean...the Road Hole is a good illustration of both your points. Originally a par 5, shortened to a very difficult par 4 sometime in the 60's (?). Tough par 4...easier par 5. Probably a par 4.5 either way.


It is probably still a 4.1 playing at 260 :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2015, 01:44:06 PM »
Hi,


Every hole is a solution of four; whether it's 740, 640, 540, 440, 340, 240, 140 or 40...the "par" is irrelevant.


Some fours are very hard, almost impossible; some are attainable with excellent play and good fortune; some are simple and the greatness/consequence comes from trying to go lower.


A great course will have a full mix of these, with a concentration in the middle group...8-12 of them, if I had to be pinned down.


cheers


vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2015, 02:25:37 PM »
Perhaps great holes are more often half-par holes, whether it's to the easy or hard side?  Or perhaps great holes allow more birdies but also more volatility and the chance of large numbers?  By the way, this goes against the status quo of "fairness" and expectations of fairways and greens in reg and 2-putting....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Gib_Papazian

Re: Great holes are birdied more than tough holes.
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2015, 02:11:46 PM »
Trying to define what constitutes a “great hole” is a subjective exercise in chasing your tail. A better term would be “memorable” or “intellectually challenging.” To me, the best ones present a confusing collage of options where even after multiple plays, the most logical strategy is still uncertain.

A quick list off the top of my head would be #2 at Pac Dunes, #12 at TOC, #4 at Spyglass, #10 at Apache Stronghold, #1 at NGLA, #10 at Shinnecock, #14 at Bandon Trails, #16 at Old Mac, #16 at Bandon Dunes, #9 at Cypress Point - or the par-6 10th hole at Riviera - an intelligence test I have never once passed. 

Years ago I wrote that “facing 18 examples of Orwellian Overchoice in a row can be maddening” - but nearly every acclaimed golf course has a few holes that defy analysis. Some are “pay me now or pay me later” like #15 at ANGC - or the golf strategy equivalent of three dimensional chess like #5 at Bandon Dunes, which encourages changing your mind in the middle of your backswing off the tee.   

It seems simplistic to boil down the definition to holes “on either the edge of par” because #11 at Shinnecock, #12 at ANGC or #17 at Sawgrass are all inarguably “great,” but in reality present fairly straightforward challenges. Others are more difficult to define, with a  je ne said quoi like #6 at Creek Club that is not terribly difficult, but incredibly inspiring - somehow adding up to an exponential sum of its parts.

It would be interesting to have everyone in the Treehouse drill down and try to name their single best par 3, 4 and 5. Like trying to stratify “Best Song or Movie.” I think the answers would be a fascinating illustration of what they most value in a so-called “ideal golf hole.”