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Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
A very sound choice by the good folks in Wirral. From the article:
 
During his career Nicklaus has won 18 professional major championships, and his company has almost 380 courses open for play in 36 countries, with Jack Nicklaus involved in the design of 290 of the courses. At least 70 Nicklaus Design courses have been ranked by major industry publications.
 
So out of 290 course he has been involved in he has exactly 8 courses in the three major Top 100 lists:
 
Muirfield Village, mostly Desmond Muirhead
Sebonac, relied heavily on Tom Doak
Harbor Town, Pete Dye
which leaves:
Vallhalla
Castle Pines
Mayacama
Shoal Creek
Concession
Now that's a great track record, I can't wait to play a Vallhalla style layout next time I'm in  Wirral!
 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 05:11:01 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
A very sound choice by the good folks in Wirral. From the article:
 
During his career Nicklaus has won 18 professional major championships, and his company has almost 380 courses open for play in 36 countries, with Jack Nicklaus involved in the design of 290 of the courses. At least 70 Nicklaus Design courses have been ranked by major industry publications.
 
So out of 290 course he has been involved in he has exactly 6 courses in the three major Top 100 lists:
 
Muirfield Village, mostly Desmond Muirhead
Sebonac, relied heavily on Tom Doak
Harbor Town, Pete Dye
which leaves:
Vallhalla
Castle Pines
Mayacama
Shoal Creek
Concession
Now that's a great track record, I can't wait to play a Vallhalla style layout next time I'm in  Wirral!

You're missing something Pete

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
This one has been bubbling under for ages, they had originally planned to announce the investor and designer at the Hoylake Open last year. Only 12 months late. I am deeply cynical about the proposition, we shall have to see whether it happens. And if it happens, whether it prospers.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
A very sound choice by the good folks in Wirral. From the article:
 
During his career Nicklaus has won 18 professional major championships, and his company has almost 380 courses open for play in 36 countries, with Jack Nicklaus involved in the design of 290 of the courses. At least 70 Nicklaus Design courses have been ranked by major industry publications.
 
So out of 290 course he has been involved in he has exactly 6 courses in the three major Top 100 lists:
 
Muirfield Village, mostly Desmond Muirhead
Sebonac, relied heavily on Tom Doak
Harbor Town, Pete Dye
which leaves:
Vallhalla
Castle Pines
Mayacama
Shoal Creek
Concession
Now that's a great track record, I can't wait to play a Vallhalla style layout next time I'm in  Wirral!

You're missing something Pete


And the missing one just happens to be the best

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Greg,
 
I was using the Golf Digest, Golf and Golf Week Top 100 lists, so Cabo del Sol didn't pop. Still that's a pretty poor hitting percentage for someone who was given a lot of choice projects. Perhaps they think he's due!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Greg,
 
I was using the Golf Digest, Golf and Golf Week Top 100 lists, so Cabo del Sol didn't pop. Still that's a pretty poor hitting percentage for someone who was given a lot of choice projects. Perhaps they think he's due!

Pete, It has been in every GOLF Magazine list since opening. At least for a couple more months  ;)

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2016, 01:36:54 AM »
Radio 4 programme aired yesterday all about the the potential environmental impact of the proposed new Nicklaus course at Hoylake.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07qbl5p




I listened to the programme without knowing much about this project. I was a little surprised to discover later that the proposed course is on very dull flat farmland a mile or so inland.


What's the point?


« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 01:46:59 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2016, 04:54:03 AM »
I think it is very wrong that the name Hoylake should be associated with this project. It has no similarity whatsoever with Royal Liverpool - even Hoylake Municipal just over the road has little linksland character.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2016, 05:07:55 AM »
I suppose it is in the area of Hoylake, so that bit is at least reasonable.


I think the proposition is to provide a hotel of a fairly high quality, which the area is said to need.


I'm still dubious that this scheme will ever come to fruition. I can't believe that the council is putting up the money to build it, yet all the publicity has come from Wirral Council's promotion of the project. When I see evidence of private funds being behind the development, then I'll believe it will happen.

Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Stephen Northrup

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2016, 11:20:49 AM »
British English must define "adjacent" differently from how we Yanks use the term.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2016, 01:22:05 PM »

Sebonac, relied heavily on Tom Doak



Pete,


Can you tell us in more detail about how Jack "relied heavily on Tom Doak" in regards to the creation of Sebonack?  I really enjoyed Sebonack and have always been curious about the collaboration there.  Looking forward to your insights.


Thanks!


Mark




Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2016, 01:42:01 PM »
Some of the Nicklaus criticism here is a little ridiculous. 

First off, since when did gca's standard for greatness become magazine rankings?  The answer:  when it is convenient.  Last I checked, most on here find the magazine rankings to be poor representations of the world's best courses.  I don't agree, but you just can't have it both ways.

Second, Nicklaus has shown an ability to adapt and change his style in recent years.  Beyond Sebonac, courses such as May River and Dismal River have proven that.  It sounds like the land for the proposed course is somewhat flat and boring - very similar to May River.  Personally, I found that course quite good.  I understand the Nicklaus course at Colleton River (presumably on similar, low-country land) is also solid.  So, it seems to me, Nicklaus may be an excellent choice for this project. 

I've played about 20 Nicklaus courses, and can't say a single one wasn't pretty good, and a couple are among my all-time favorites.  It's ok to like courses designed by folks other than Doak or C&C.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2016, 02:23:18 PM »
Some of the Nicklaus criticism here is a little ridiculous. 

First off, since when did gca's standard for greatness become magazine rankings?  The answer:  when it is convenient.  Last I checked, most on here find the magazine rankings to be poor representations of the world's best courses.  I don't agree, but you just can't have it both ways.

Second, Nicklaus has shown an ability to adapt and change his style in recent years.  Beyond Sebonac, courses such as May River and Dismal River have proven that.  It sounds like the land for the proposed course is somewhat flat and boring - very similar to May River.  Personally, I found that course quite good.  I understand the Nicklaus course at Colleton River (presumably on similar, low-country land) is also solid.  So, it seems to me, Nicklaus may be an excellent choice for this project. 

I've played about 20 Nicklaus courses, and can't say a single one wasn't pretty good, and a couple are among my all-time favorites.  It's ok to like courses designed by folks other than Doak or C&C.

How dare you make a comment that actually makes sense! All along, I thought there was something wrong with me for liking a few Nicklaus courses.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2016, 03:58:07 PM »

Sebonac, relied heavily on Tom Doak




Can you tell us in more detail about how Jack "relied heavily on Tom Doak" in regards to the creation of Sebonack?  I really enjoyed Sebonack and have always been curious about the collaboration there.  Looking forward to your insights.


Thanks!


Mark

Mark,

First I must point out that I have not played nor toured Sebonack. As a frequent GCA participant you must have been visiting the links courses of the UK for an extended period to miss the extensive dialogue about the Nicklaus and Doak collaboration at Sebonack.

Here is a very simplistic synopsis based on just keeping one's ear to the ground:

Owner hires Nicklaus who is a neighbor in Fla.

Owner not overly impressed with Jack's original scheme, suggests a collaboration based on overwhelming recommendation for Tom.

 Doak does a routing plan on his own.

Owner likes the Doak plan but doesn't want to fire Jack.

They agree to work together, Jack is blown away by Doak's undulating greens which he frankly never would have considered and soon incorporates them into his own designs.

Basically, Doak handled the greens and Jack handled the ball striking strategy.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2016, 04:03:40 PM »
Brian,

With all due respect , do you think Doak ,C&C or Hanse would have been given 290 chances before they knocked one out of the park?! To say that your work isn't validated by a good rating is somewhat myopic. For the millions of $$$ the Nicklaus Group charges "pretty good" should not be the standard!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 04:06:48 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2016, 05:42:11 PM »
Brian,

With all due respect , do you think Doak ,C&C or Hanse would have been given 290 chances before they knocked one out of the park?! To say that your work isn't validated by a good rating is somewhat myopic. For the millions of $$$ the Nicklaus Group charges "pretty good" should not be the standard!


First off, for the record, I love the magazine rankings (unlike many here).  I think each list has a lot to offer and they absolutely provide validation. Of course they're all flawed, but who cares?  For what it's worth, looking at the GW t200, GM t100, and GD t100 (about 300 unique courses), Nicklaus had 22 courses. That's pretty solid, in my view. And if you want to pick on the denominator in the Nicklaus success equation, calling out 290 designs, I'd like to point out that his success rate is as good or better than Donald Ross. Perhaps that is because, like Ross, Nicklaus has varying levels of involvement in his projects.  And you seem to suggest that it took Nicklaus 290 tries before he produced a great course. That's just asinine. He "knocked it out of the park" on some of his earliest design, as well as some of his most recent.


More important than any of this is how successful so many Nicklaus courses, public and private are. I recently played a private club in Ohio that had 18 holes of Nicklaus 'signature' golf, which the members loved so much that they brought him back to do another 9.  I thought the course was fine - not great - but, as a golf architecture nerd, I am in the extremely small minority. Aside from this group of 1,500 nerds, everyone I talk to loves Grand Cypress resort in FL. These are but 2 examples. You know as well as I do that there are many more.


Bottom line...they aren't picking him to please gca geeks. They're picking him because a majority of golfers enjoy playing his courses and will pay a high green fee or membership fee to do so.  He generates ROI for those that pay him his grand fees. If this wasn't the case, he wouldn't have gotten 290 chances. This isn't news to anyone.



New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2016, 06:00:40 PM »
Some of the Nicklaus criticism here is a little ridiculous. 

First off, since when did gca's standard for greatness become magazine rankings?  The answer:  when it is convenient.  Last I checked, most on here find the magazine rankings to be poor representations of the world's best courses.  I don't agree, but you just can't have it both ways.

Second, Nicklaus has shown an ability to adapt and change his style in recent years.  Beyond Sebonac, courses such as May River and Dismal River have proven that.  It sounds like the land for the proposed course is somewhat flat and boring - very similar to May River.  Personally, I found that course quite good.  I understand the Nicklaus course at Colleton River (presumably on similar, low-country land) is also solid.  So, it seems to me, Nicklaus may be an excellent choice for this project. 

I've played about 20 Nicklaus courses, and can't say a single one wasn't pretty good, and a couple are among my all-time favorites.  It's ok to like courses designed by folks other than Doak or C&C.

Forget the magazines: look at the GCA unofficial rankings from 2009.  With a few notable exceptions, Jack's courses are almost nowhere to be seen.  Just like the golf magazines, GCA collectively does not rank Jack's courses among the world's elite.  (Again with an exception or two.)  Btw, Jack spent vastly more time on those exceptions than he has his other courses (which is usually only a day or two on site).  Which suggests to me that he could produce more top-ranked courses, if he put the time into them.  But that is not his business model. 
 
His model is more like a golf course factory, that churns out large numbers of real good courses, but very few inspired ones.  Most of his inspired courses were mostly designed by others.  At Sebonac, e.g., Tom did the routing and most of the greens.  Does Jack really merit co-credit on that design? 

Cabo del Sol sounds fantastic.  I wish Jack would create more exceptional courses like that.  Looks like his team has the ability to do so.  Will take more than two days of his time on the ground to achieve that, though.

I also wish Jack would route some courses.  Until he does that, he is not IMO a golf course architect.   

PS: as I was posting this, I saw Brian's latest post.  I think owners pick Jack number one for marketing reasons.  Number two he has produced high-quality courses.  Both excellent reasons.  Jack will not be remembered as one of the world's great golf course architects, though, where I bet Tom and C&C will.   

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2016, 06:44:46 PM »
Brian,

You have convieniently chosen the GW Top 200 and now Jack goes from 8 for 290 to 22 for290; seems to support my position of good but not great.

I never stated that Jack didn't give his clients what they wanted, successful courses that appeal to the masses. He is no doubt the King of ROI.

Again which of his early courses you say he knocked out of the park, done soley by his firm, should we regard as great?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2016, 07:20:01 PM »
Brian,

You have convieniently chosen the GW Top 200 and now Jack goes from 8 for 290 to 22 for290; seems to support my position of good but not great.

I never stated that Jack didn't give his clients what they wanted, successful courses that appeal to the masses. He is no doubt the King of ROI.

Again which of his early courses you say he knocked out of the park, done soley by his firm, should we regard as great?
I only used the term "knocked it out of the park" due to the ridiculous assertion you made that it took Nicklaus 290 tries to do so.  But, I'll play along by providing a few examples.


Muirfield Village is one of the best golf courses in the world. I know you'd like to give Desmond Muirhead all the credit, but if, in fact, Muirhead was the mastermind, why isn't a single Muirhead course highly regarded?  Using your math, he bats .000.  Surely, Nicklaus had a huge hand in this outstanding design.


Shoal Creek & Castle Pines are also very highly ranked courses among his early work. I haven't had the good fortune to play either, but have been told by well-traveled folks (GCA guys, in fact), that each is excellent.


Just curious...what is your personal experience with Nicklaus courses?  I ask because we all (well, most of us) love to look at the photos shared on this site and watch golf on tv, but it's very difficult to get a true feel for a course never having seen it in person.  I know folks here hate to hear this, but it's pretty accurate.


Anyway, we clearly disagree. I'm ok with that.  Thanks for an interesting discussion.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2016, 07:47:57 PM »
Brian,

I am also enjoying the discussion , in answer to your question I have played both Nicklaus courses at PGA West and Turtle Point at Kiawah. Possibly a bad sampling as the PGA West courses are best described as hideous and TP is memorable only for the two ocean front holes which are quite good.

Still 8 for 290 is a 2.75% average, well below the Medoza Line. Not having played either CP or SC I can't say if they were missed opportunities or just fulfilling the clients needs with courses that can keep Tour Pros in check. But my definition of greatness goes well beyond sheer difficulty.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 07:49:37 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2016, 08:32:30 PM »
Just a quick look at percentages, Tom Doak has 7 out of 39 course in the Top100 lists for a 17.9% average. Ross has 19 out out of 490 (that number is a guess on my part as I frankly can't count that high) for a 3.9% average; of course he was asked to build a lot more municipal courses.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2016, 08:44:11 PM »
Just a quick look at percentages, Tom Doak has 7 out of 39 course in the Top100 lists for a 17.9% average. Ross has 19 out out of 490 (that number is a guess on my part as I frankly can't count that high) for a 3.9% average; of course he was asked to build a lot more municipal courses.


Pete,


Did Doak throw his hat in the ring there?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 01:19:39 AM by Brent Carlson »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2016, 09:00:58 PM »
Off the top of my head, I think High Pointe, Riverdale and Commomn Ground were/are munis. There could be more? For somebody who's hit so many singles I'd say he must be juiced!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus to design new course adjacent to Hoylake for Wirral Council
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2016, 12:49:23 AM »

Sebonac, relied heavily on Tom Doak




Can you tell us in more detail about how Jack "relied heavily on Tom Doak" in regards to the creation of Sebonack?  I really enjoyed Sebonack and have always been curious about the collaboration there.  Looking forward to your insights.


Thanks!


Mark

Mark,

First I must point out that I have not played nor toured Sebonack. As a frequent GCA participant you must have been visiting the links courses of the UK for an extended period to miss the extensive dialogue about the Nicklaus and Doak collaboration at Sebonack.

Here is a very simplistic synopsis based on just keeping one's ear to the ground:

Owner hires Nicklaus who is a neighbor in Fla.

Owner not overly impressed with Jack's original scheme, suggests a collaboration based on overwhelming recommendation for Tom.

 Doak does a routing plan on his own.

Owner likes the Doak plan but doesn't want to fire Jack.

They agree to work together, Jack is blown away by Doak's undulating greens which he frankly never would have considered and soon incorporates them into his own designs.

Basically, Doak handled the greens and Jack handled the ball striking strategy.

So you really have no insight that Jack "relied heavily on Doak at Senonack.  I''d say if Jack was primarily responsible for tee to green and Tom did the greens then it worked out just fine for both of them.  However I doubt it is that cut and dry, but who knows. 

I have been lucky enough to play many Nicklaus courses and they are all really solid and enjoyable. I think he builds the best Par 5's in the business.  No easy task!  I would strongly recommend checking out Shoal Creek, May River, Muirfield Village, Spring Creek Ranch, Sebonack, Sycamore Hills, Whispering Pines and Great Waters to see for yourself.  These courses may or may not populate the Top Whatever lists, but I sure enjoy spending time on them,