ICONIC GB&I HOLES

[Sean_A]

I had a conversation with someone recently about the holes which really stand out in GB&I as world classics...for whatever reason.  Today I tried to start a list and in doing so it really rang home why I love North Berwick and Prestwick so much...between them they have as many as 7 iconic holes: Pit, Gate, Redan, Alps, Himalayas, Cardinal and Sea Hedrig.  I don't think TOC can truly boast of three once we drop 16 for lack of fairway on the left. 


Anyway, others that I thought could be candidates (notice how many holes have a huge landform or otherwise significant land movement) 


Klondyke & Dell
Pennard 7
Rye 4
St Enodoc 4 & 6
Road Hole
Woking 4
Huntercombe 3
Brancaster 4 & 8
Dornoch Foxy
Aberdovey Cader & 16
Addington 12 & 13
Painswick 5
Swinley 12
Machrihanish 1
Kington 18


Additions:

Postage Stamp
Calamity Corner
County Down 9
Cruden Bay 14
Sandwich 4
TOC 14
Carnoustie 6 & 18? 
Lytham 17? 
Ballybunion 11?
Cruden Bay 4? 
Hoylake 1? 
Belfry 10
Dornoch 2?
RND 6?
Turnberry 10
 


How bout other candidates?


Ciao

[Bill Gayne]

9 at RCD (I'm not sure if iconic and great can be the same)
14 at Cruden Bay (Bathtub iconic but not great)

[Bill_McBride]

Deal 3 and 16.   Sandwich 4 and 5.  Littlestone 16.   Rye 13.  Porthcawl 13.  Elie 13.  TOC 14.  Dornoch 14. 


So many great holes.

[David_Tepper]

The Postage Stamp, #8 at Royal Troon.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/theopen/2382739/The-Postage-Stamp.html

[Bill Gayne]

Deal 3 and 16.   Sandwich 4 and 5.  Littlestone 16.   Rye 13.  Porthcawl 13.  Elie 13.  TOC 14.  Dornoch 14. 


So many great holes.

Making my first trip to Deal and Sandwich next weekend before the Open.

[Phil McDade]

I had a conversation with someone recently about the holes which really stand out in GB&I as world classics...for whatever reason. 
Anyway, others that I thought could be candidates (notice how many holes have a huge landform or otherwise significant land movement) 


Machrihanish 1



Ciao

Can a hole be iconic if half of it is mediocre?


Context matters here -- sure, the tee shot at the 1st at Machrihanish thrills. But so should the rest of the hole, and the 1st pales in comparison to its front-nine brethren. The second shot at the 1st is played over indifferent land, to a green that turns away from the ocean, and one that doesn't hold much in comparison to other front-nine greens, particularly the one that immediately follows (the 2nd -- an all-world green). Really, I'd rate the 1st at Machrihanish as among the weaker of the course's front-nine par 4s -- it doesn't hold much interest after the tee shot, whereas the rest of the front nine sets the heart and mind racing. A hole can't be iconic if it's not among the top half-dozen on its own course.

[David_Tepper]

"a person or thing that is revered or idolized"

Sean -

Using the definition of icon as shown above as the one most appropriate to a hole on a golf course, can you really say that any hole on relatively unknown courses such as Painswick and Kington can be considered to be iconic?

There may be wonderful, memorable, unique holes on courses such as Painswick and Kington. Holes on those courses may be among your personal favorites. But, within the world of golf, calling holes on those courses iconic is a stretch.

DT   

P.S. I do agree that land forms and land movement can help to make a golf hole memorable. (see #16 at Golspie )

[Steve Wilson]

At Painswick are we talking about 5 which is another bathtub or 6 which is a world class par 3.


Oh, iconic, never mind.  I'm having an Emily Littela moment.

[GLawson]

How about 17 at Royal Lytham.  Great long par 4 and the Bobby Jones plaque from 1926 makes it iconic in my mind.

[Brent Carlson]

Ballybunion #11 is iconic IMO.

[Mark Pavy]

"a person or thing that is revered or idolized"

Sean -

Using the definition of icon as shown above as the one most appropriate to a hole on a golf course, can you really say that any hole on relatively unknown courses such as Painswick and Kington can be considered to be iconic?

There may be wonderful, memorable, unique holes on courses such as Painswick and Kington. Holes on those courses may be among your personal favorites. But, within the world of golf, calling holes on those courses iconic is a stretch.

DT   

P.S. I do agree that land forms and land movement can help to make a golf hole memorable. (see #16 at Golspie )

My thinking is along similar lines. You could almost say that an iconic hole would be on a course that is really old or on the rota.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Sean - You picked some good ones.


Iconic GB&I holes to me are often the ones I've read about or seen in a picture in the 3rd edition Confidential Guide or have watercolors in Darwin's book. These are the holes/courses I seek out first when planning a trip.

Cruden Bay 4 and 8,
Walton Heath Old 16
St. George's Hill 8 (because of the historic version)
Muirfield 18
Carnoustie 18
The Old Course 18
Westward Ho 1
Royal St George's 4


Honestly, Kingsbarns 12 is fast becoming iconic, especially among the US crowd


Sorry Deal Crowd, I think its a super cool links, but there is nothing "iconic" to me!

[Mark Pearce]

Muirfield 13


Foxy


Woking 4


Ganton 16

[Thomas Dai]

Some not mentioned -


1st at Hoylake - around the Cop
14th at Royal Portrush Dunluce - Calamity
6th at Carnoustie - Hogans Alley and all that
1st at Royal Jersey - go play it


Atb

[Sean_A]

Thanks gents.  Perhaps iconic isn't the best word for what I mean.  I hate to say unique as well, but that is probably more like it...holes which bring something different to the architecture table and are at least a very early version.  In most cases the holes should be iconic and/or famous.  There are loads of cool holes which don't really fit in...such as at Deal. 


I will eliminate courses which aren't famous even though I think it is very possible these courses could have holes which are very special. 


Ace...I can buy Sandwich 4 and TOC 14.  Though personally I don't think 14 is all that special.  A similar hole is Deal 16 and its better.  I am not convinced by your other candidates.


Bill...I can buy Cruden Bay 14 and RCD 9.


David...doh!


Phil...I disagree, Machrihanish 1 is perhaps the most iconic opening hole on the planet.


GLawson...Lytham 17?  Well, that hole doesn't get my juices flowing and it isn't particularly special except for history....


Brent...Bally 11 doesn't really fit my idea of what I am looking for,but I will place it in for now


Jaeger...I don't know about your choices, maybe Cruden Bay 4...


Mark...I am not biting on 13 Muirfield or Ganton 16.


ATB...Hoylake 1 and Carnasty 6 are less than exciting for this list, but lets give them a whirl for now. Calamity Corner...doh! 


There must be others we are missing. 


Ciao

[Ed Tilley]

Sunningdale Old 5, or 10 with the halfway hut beyond. Or even 18 as looking from 17 towards the clubhouse down 18 is probably the iconic heathland view.

[Ed Tilley]

And Royal North Devon 6

[Ed Tilley]

Last go at this!

- 3 & 4 at RCD.
- 1 Portstewart
- 17 Tralee
- 15 Royal St. Davids

[Mark Pavy]

Old Head 4
Tralee 12

[Mike_Clayton]

Thomas,


Another  vote for Royal Jersey 1st. One war represented down the left side of the fairway and another, bigger one, on the right.

[Jim Nugent]

10 at the Belfry.

15 at Portmarnock. 

[Niall C]

Context matters here -- sure, the tee shot at the 1st at Machrihanish thrills. But so should the rest of the hole, and the 1st pales in comparison to its front-nine brethren. The second shot at the 1st is played over indifferent land, to a green that turns away from the ocean................... A hole can't be iconic if it's not among the top half-dozen on its own course.

Phil,


I can't agree that the approach to Mach 1 is played over indifferent land. To be sure the hole has lost a lot of its challenge in this age of big headed drivers but the land in front of the green and the green itself are the essence of good links golf with subtle and not so subtle borrows that need to be understood to get the ball close, especially when fast and firm. That is unless of course you are a first class golfer who can bomb a a drive miles down leaving a short iron approach which you can hit with plenty of spin. Otherwise its classic links golf.


As for iconic necessarily having to mean good, I'd suggest that there are probably a few on the list so far that wouldn't be on it if that were the case.


Niall 

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas,
Another  vote for Royal Jersey 1st. One war represented down the left side of the fairway and another, bigger one, on the right.

Thanks Mike.


Royal Jersey (and so I am led to believe La Moye also for that matter) is a course more contributing herein should play. I did a short photo tour a while back -http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55239.msg1279934.html#msg1279934


I also found this video mainly about Harry Vardon and Ted Ray but it also gives a flavour of the RJGC course - http://edition.cnn.com/videos/sports/2013/07/04/living-golf-jersey-vardon-ray.cnn
atb

[Mike_Clayton]

Thomas


I've played La Moye many times and its very good.I only walked Royal Jersey but also more than worth the effort to see. And there is all the Vardon and Ray history.

[Adam Lawrence]

In pure golf terms La Moye is considerably the better course, but if you don't love Royal Jersey I don't want to play golf with you. There's a bunch of fun holes, the most terrifying first tee shot in golf and as Mike says, the pleasure of playing where Vardon grew up - there is a plaque just off the twelfth fairway marking where he grew up. And the greenkeeping team's yard is a Napoleonic Wars fort.