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Chris Cupit

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Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2015, 08:23:43 PM »

Hmmm.  Interesting question.  I am an entry level (fully) private golf club.  I have a terrific course, active golf program, good pace of play and nice social activities but no pool or tennis (to speak of).  I also have a great bunch of Members who are just good people to hang around with and play golf.  :D [size=78%]  [/size][size=78%]Initiation fees and high dues require fancy clubhouses, pool, tennis, athletic...and even then, that model has largely failed in Atlanta.[/size]


The clubs that used to charge $25-35,000 and $500 per month are now largely bankrupt and owned by someone else.  Atlanta still is a "no to very low  initiation fee market" and as a result dues/mandatory monthly fees have gone through the roof:


Horseshoe Bend--Bankrupt and now after lots of improvements and a new owner its $5,000 and about $700 per month
CCof the South--bankrupt, now owned by ClubCorp with dues /monthlies of $733
Echelon--bankrupt, new owner
Alpahretta Athletic Club--bankrupt, new owner
The Manor--bankrupt, new owner??


The Standard Club and St. Ives have survived but with much lower IFs and higher dues and assessments.  CC of Roswell also has survived but they too have had assessments and lower IFs.  I think all are in the $600-$700 per month in mandatory montly  fees.


At the high end, Peachtree, Capital City, Piedmont & Cherokee CC have been the only ones to maintain or increase IFs this past decade.  Hawk's Rdige which was once $90,000 to join is maybe $5,000 now and even the Atlanta Athletic Club, which has recently hosted majors and has the most incredible facility you can imagine, has had to lower their IF and do "deals" like 10 year interest free "financing" to attract members.  Even then, they are contemplating another fairly large assessment for a $35MM capital plan over 15 years!!??


So, the Atlanta initiation fee market stinks from an operator's perspective >:(


I am $500 to join and my Full Family Golf (most expensive) is $375 with no assessments (in 42 years), no minimums, range and all service charges included.  My model is very different than almost all my neighbors.  I have to stay more active and do 36,000 rounds to their 22,000 on average.  I have actually lowered my caps--another result of the Great Recession is having fewer dues paying members but those who stay play more golf.  So, fewer members but still the same number of rounds--again not ideal as an operator.  My golf cap used to be 475 full golf and 125 senior golf (weekday golf only).  Now I lowered my cap to 450 and 115 in order to keep the course from getting too crowded and beat up.  (I need about twenty more full members and have a small waiting list for my senior category.  I also have 127 social members).


I never allowed summer outings (June-August) to protect the course.  Our maintenance budget is about $800,000 (not like some of our fancier neighbors) but I feel we have kept the course is very good condition over the last ten years (or since our remodel in 2006). 


I am a golfer and we are a family run place--my mom still works three days a week and I am here every day so I am not paying a management company or GM to operate my business and we have very little debt.  (In the late 2000's lots of clubs took on debt building mammoth amenities and clubhouses and it busted them--debt kills :o [size=78%]).  I hate big clubhouses--unless you can pay cash for them, I just don't think you can sell enough hamburgers to pay for them.  [/size]


We are active but have never used a lottery system for tee times--first call, first serve and it works well.  Pace is very good with weekends getting around in 4 hours and 15 minutes even if you tee off at noon.  (If your group tees off before 10:00 on a weekend and you finish in more than 4 hors 10 minutes and more than 15 minutes behind the group in front of you, you have to play after 10:00 the next weekend!) 


I serve a need in a market that is either public golf or expensive private golf.  My customer is mainly interested in golf and social.  He/she doesn't want or need fancy, a pool, tennis or a gym.  For about half the price they can get "just golf, fun and food" and that fills a need.


As for comprimises, we don;t have a huge budget but our tees are Diamond ZOysia, bermuda fairways, cool bunkers (yes all lined billy bunkers  ;) ), we had A-1/A-4 bent now going to TE, fans and the greens that were built with a sub-air system.  By focusing on the golf I think we provided an excellent golf experience especially at our fees structure. 


Again, we are mainly a golf club and as I have said other places: golf is fine, it is the country club business that needs to wake up!

Chris, thanks for sharing your thoughts in so much detail - great information and best wishes through the transition.


Apologies for the slightly OT question but I couldn't resist...it sounds like you prefer bent and would keep bent if not for the very substantial play your course gets vs. other privates in the area.  I'm curious how you do the cost-benefit analysis of 'capping membership / raising dues / having improved conditions' vs. your current model, which sounds very, very successful but may lead to compromises on the golf course?

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2015, 08:26:37 PM »
GREAT information; thank you, Chris!

And send Don Marsh out to Crystal Falls during the summer; he can play as my guest anytime he likes!
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2015, 08:32:12 PM »
Really appreciate your thoughtful reply, Chris - with your passionate leadership, it's no surprise that Rivermont is so successful!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2015, 08:33:42 PM »
Chris, lots of very good info.  I like your model.  At Pensacola CC my monthly is $650 before I step foot on the property, average is $950-1,000.    Some of this is "debt reduction," etc, we have a lot of debt after building too much clubhouse after Hurricane Ivan and subsidizing the tennis, pool and fitness center.   I wish we had an operation like yours down this way.   Or the Fields too!

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2015, 08:34:28 PM »

Good luck--the DZ can be great grass.  I think if speed is not a huge concern it could be perfect for that course.  One piece of advice--don't sand cap the profile before sodding.  The one thing we and others saw was that on the tees that we capped (thinking that was the thing to do), the DZ got hydrophobic--we were wilt watching tees!!  Bad mistake and I would say make sure you have enough organix matter to prevent that problem. 


I think they will like the DZ--tough, resilient, slow growing, green and loves heat but can tolerate more shade than bermuda.  Good luck!

Chris - you are correct... I think the primary reason Clemson went with DZ was because of the shade tolerance. When I asked them about their decision they said that speed was not their primary concern. As a public facility they want "enough" speed but not to stimp 11. Like you they are switching from bent, which struggles in the summer due to heat and rounds. It will be interesting to see how this turns out as they CAN'T get it wrong... they don't have the money to do it again in a few years.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2015, 08:35:15 PM »

Hah  ;)   Well, that and our location is great  ;D

Really appreciate your thoughtful reply, Chris - with your passionate leadership, it's no surprise that Rivermont is so successful!

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2015, 08:36:02 PM »
Don is pumped--just spoke to him an hour ago!  He is a great one--I wish I could clone him...


GREAT information; thank you, Chris!

And send Don Marsh out to Crystal Falls during the summer; he can play as my guest anytime he likes!

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2015, 08:39:19 PM »
Thanks Mac--don't mean this to be a "love fest" but anyone that knows Mac knows I am the lucky one--I really am blessed to have some great Members like you.


quote author=Mac Plumart link=topic=61313.msg1456334#msg1456334 date=1435621465]
Thanks, Chris!


Your passion comes through even in the words you type.  Rivermont is a great club because of your life-long commitment to it.  I'm proud (and very happy) to be a member.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2015, 08:44:59 PM »

Thanks for that heads up--I will make sure Mark knows about it.  Obviously I priced all three and the difference today is less than 2%  :(
I know back in 2010 TE was closer to 10% less expensive if I remember correctly--I'm just glad I bought it before AAC ordered and drove up the price  ;D


I think you are correct re: Dr. Hanna and developing vs. finding TE and I will be sure to ask him about that.  Seems like quite an amazing man.


Ultimately, I think the preference is for SPEED and to get to 13 they are going to be smooth too so I predict good players want smooth, fast, flattish greens  :(

Chris,
I planted Champions three years ago and am ok with it but agree with what you say.  I put TE on three courses I did back when it first cam out in 1998 or 1999 in Miss and they have not mutated but as you mention my Champion has a few little issues there.  I will say, and I'm sure Mark already knows that the circular vertigrooming with a tri-plex works wonders and if you really wish to go bigtime look at the new electric controlled walkers.  The clip one can acheive is unreal and it makes all the difference. 
Also, acouple of years ago the TE was much cheaper than MV or Champions but that may have changed as now guys are leaning toward TE.  Plus , isn't it the only one that was developed and not "found"?
As you say they are all good and can be maintained to a level that is as good but "different" than bent. 
I think it will be interesting in a few years to see if young players who grew up on good UD greens would choose a good bent over the UD.    I'm not sure they would.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2015, 10:30:57 PM »
In July of 2013 MV in ATL was around .54 per sq ft and TE was .29.  I'm sure it has jumped. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2015, 10:56:52 PM »
Mike,
Please tell me the name of that nursery!  Seriously I just wrote a check to Pike Creek for $76,230 for 140,000 sq ft. That's 54.45 which is almost identical to the quotes I got on MV and C.

I guess I waited too long to change !

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2015, 11:01:13 PM »
Mike,
Please tell me the name of that nursery!  Seriously I just wrote a check to Pike Creek for $76,230 for 140,000 sq ft. That's 54.45 which is almost identical to the quotes I got on MV and C.

I guess I waited too long to change !
It was Pike Creek..... they were carrying both...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brett Wiesley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2015, 02:25:48 AM »
Mike & Chris,


Thanks for the discussion on the different types of Ultradwarf.  It was very informative, and having been South in the last few years, I've played many of the newly converted green surfaces.  This helps in the thought process as to what they chose.  Seems very dependent on microclimate, batch, etc.  I know Old Tabby in the Hilton Head area is starting all over after their MiniVerde did not come in well.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2015, 08:52:24 AM »
I think Harbor Towne just announced a renovation with Davis Love and they are going TE

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2015, 10:04:45 AM »
Thanks for the report Chris and best of luck!  I am not familiar with the term seperation that you discuss when comparing different ultradwarfs.  Could you explain?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2015, 10:34:09 AM »
Am I wrong but isn't this conversion less expensive than the purchase of fans?  No more electric bill must also be a bonus.


note:  Fans do not last forever as Victoria is already on their second set.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2015, 11:58:34 AM »
Conversion has install cost of  about .55 cents per sq ft. If you simply regrass existing with the no till method it's very affordable.

We will spend 20 k on tarps for those nights in the winter when we have to cover the greens.

A single new turbo fan is around 7500. Wiring all the fans is a pain and small cost if done when irrigation goes in. If you retro the electricity it's pricey.

Cost to run fans is easily another 15-20k depending on the year.

If Victoria wants some good used fans, have them call me 😃

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2015, 05:24:54 PM »
Thanks for the report Chris and best of luck!  I am not familiar with the term seperation that you discuss when comparing different ultradwarfs.  Could you explain?


The segregation/contamination refers to the mutations that have been noticed in the Champion grass.  Apologies for my layman explanation but many courses are noticing the Champion pretty much is mutating or somehow changing such that it is no longer the uniform, lush, consistent color or texture.  Many supers are seeing these mutations that carry with them slightly different characteristics in color, texture and most importantly to some, resistance to certain chemicals like primo.


People debate whether the mutations are coming from contaminated growing fields or whether the mutations simply occur naturally after a period of time.  I cannot speak to how serious an issue it really is but it is not a situation any super thinks is desirable. 

Carson Pilcher

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Re: Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2015, 09:33:19 PM »
Great replies Chris, and thank you for your insight and process towards your decision.