Rivermont takes the plunge toTifEagle

[Chris Cupit]

After lots of thought I decided the time was right to switch from our A-1/A-4 bent greens to one of the ultra dwarf bermuda grasses--TifEagle.  Dr. Hanna is coming to a town hall meeting at my club to answer questions and talk about "his" grass.  I know this is not a cure all in the transition zone but do believe at an active course with more than 35,000 rounds, the ultra-dwarf bermuda is the way to go.


I also believe we can keep green speeds under control as I absolutely refuse to modify the slopes and contours of the greens (OK, for those of you who have played the course, Michael Riley is coming to soften a bit of the ninth green) 


Looking forward to more consistent and firmer green surrounds which should really highlight our uniqueness--looking forward to having some GCAers come play the "new" course this fall!!

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Congrats Chris - this sounds like a great path forward!

[David_Tepper]

How long do you expect your greens to be out of commission, growing in the new grass?

[Keith OHalloran]

Chris,
Can we vote on the softening of nine? 

[John Kavanaugh]

Congrats!!! Can you ditch the fans?

[Chris Cupit]

NO more fans     Anyone want to buy 36 fans--turbo fans and huge box fans too!  JK I'll give you a great price 


The club next door switched last year and were playing 29 days after planting!  We have told our members the grow-in process will take 4 1/2 to 6 weeks once the spriggs are down and, of course, much depends on the weather.  July is forecast to be hotter than average so we are off to a good start.


We have applied round up and will apply the second app this Tuesday.  Greens will undergo prep on July 11-13 to get ready for July 14-15 planting/sprigging.  I think we will be playing golf for sure by September 1st if not a tad earlier.


KO--Mike and I have been looking over nine for a while--the pot bunker in front is staying!!  Green will get slightly larger and the top right shelf that people hate will get lowered about two inches.  Also, the "bump" in the middle of the green will get blended as well and go away     Right bunker shifts to the right more into the side of the hill allowing for more room for run up approaches.  My seniors and ladies (and me sometimes) should like that change.  We have also looked into expanding the front left hole area.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Good for you! After seeing The Honors Course switch to a UD, did that make you take a harder look at your situation? Thanks

[Carl Rogers]

isn't the switch from Bent almost inevitable south of  ..... let's say Washington DC???

[A.G._Crockett]

Chris,
I hope the project goes great; all you need is a "normal" July and August.  I think a lot of people in Georgia have been fooled by the last two summers into thinking that everything will be ok with bent greens.  If we have a more typical summer this year, and certainly June has seemed to be just that, then golfers will quickly remember why converting to one of the bermudas was/is desirable.

Did you get much push-back within the membership about the conversion?  And, if so, did it come from the better players?  Just curious based on what I've seen other places.

[Terry Lavin]

I see a Fall afternoon with Mike Young in my future!

[Bill_McBride]

Chris, are you shutting down or mowing some temporaries?  We switched from TifDwarf to TifEagle last summer and did the temporaries so the men's grill habitués didn't miss a day at the club and maybe go into detox shock.    We had about a seven to eight week grow in but didn't rush onto the new greens. 

[Mike_Young]

I see a Fall afternoon with Mike Young in my future!

Athens has been expecting you for sometime now.  We can play a few including Rivermont.  you just have to come down....

[Carson Pilcher]

Chris,


A couple of questions...why the choice of TifEagle over Champion?


Are you still planning to host the USGA Four Ball qualifier in August?

[Chris Cupit]

 On the course at a ladies college event but will post later today but a few quickies:

Temporaries for the membership so course stays open

Qualifier is late September (September 22) so no worries there.

Happy to explain choice of TifEagle but it's lengthy.

Talk soon

[Tom_Doak]

Chris:


I think you will enjoy the change.  I am at Mid Ocean this week doing a bit of work, and the greens that we re-grassed to TifEagle a few years ago are in their full glory now.  The putting surfaces here are fantastic, and a sea change from when I first played the course in the 1980's.

[Chris Cupit]

OK, back at work and have a little time (month end coming up so not too much time though).

First let me give the obligatory "hedge" (which is nonetheless true) and state that there is no perfect grass for Atlanta or for many areas of the country especially in the transition zone.  While the new ultra dwarfs are terrific they are not fool proof and no super or GM i have spoken to speaks of cost savings (assuming you are searching for excellent greens on a daily basis).

The new UD are prone to their own issues and yet, for my course I am convinced it is the right decision.

Obvious Pros:
Less aerating, less down time, more "good days" for the membership, fewer ball marks, more consistent surface, no fans, no OT during the summers of wilt watch, outings (revenue) possible now in June-August if we want that business, firmer, less ball-marked greens and no concern over catastrophic loss of turf in the summer.

Cons:
Many people still prefer the texture and roll of bent grass.  Tarps are required in Atl so there is that expense and the manpower to apply and remove them.  No worries in summer but there could be catastrophic loss due to winter kill (though tarps seem to have eliminated that concern), more frequent and lower mowing requires 18" mowers versus 22" given our undulations and that is an extra cost.  Brushes, groomers and some new equipment needs (the sale of the fans should help defray those costs )  Less aeration but slightly more topdressing.  Main concern is over speed and firmness getting too out of hand for our green contours but I am convinced we are going to be OK.

Anthony--I was at the Honors a few times and David has the Champion which is the Lexus of the UD's re: speed and firmness.  Having played there several times I am convinced that excessive speed can be controlled and the issue of firmness can also be controlled.  They have some bold contours and yet they were very playable.

For me the biggest reason bent was no longer the right choice was due to the amount of play my course gets.  We had many years of very good to excellent greens and if I had less play I would stay with the A-1/A-4.  My course will do 36-38,000 rounds and the combination of the summers, the demands for ever lower mowing heights and faster greens and lots of play make this the right choice to switch.

Several great Atlanta course still have bent and if I were a Member there I would never want to change.  The two finest bent courses are Peachtree with William Shirley and Atlanta CC with Mark Esoda.  Matt Brown at the Standard Club also has terrific bent.  But these three courses also do 14-22,000 each year (I am making a very educated guess) and with those numbers they can make the bent work.

I think Capital City Crabapple also has bent and they may do 12,000 rounds--they are excellent--still firm and fast.  I am curious about Capital City's downtown course--if my theory is correct that course which gets 35,000 plus rounds will be a UD candidate here soon.  The combination of our summers and rounds in excess of 30,000 just beat the bent up too much for the conditions golfers expect today.

At the Honors the choice to go UD (after David Stone was ADAMANT against it) reflects two things:  it is a summer club in the south that closes down in the winter (open mid March through late December) and the club hosts and wants to continue to host exclusive, amateur golf championships for the USGA, NCAA and TGA.  For the Honors it was a no brainer in my opinion.  Despite low round numbers if you want greens firm and fast in July and August, and your membership plays almost all their golf April through November then the UD is a no brainer.

But the UD is not for every course south of the Mason-Dixon for sure.  Shade and micro-climates may mean that bent is still the best option.  And as I mentioned, if you are fortunate to be a member of an exclusive, high end club with few rounds played, bent can still be world class IMO.

OK--why TifEagle?  Next post J

[Chris Cupit]

Thanks--one of the things that excites me most is the ability to have the course "peaking" at the same time.  Firm and fast in June, July, August and September is something I am already dreaming about 


I also feel our greens and green surrounds are really interesting and unique for Atlanta and now, they will have a chance to shine so to speak.

Chris:


I think you will enjoy the change.  I am at Mid Ocean this week doing a bit of work, and the greens that we re-grassed to TifEagle a few years ago are in their full glory now.  The putting surfaces here are fantastic, and a sea change from when I first played the course in the 1980's.

[Chris Cupit]

OK--start with another hedge.  The three ultra dwarf bermuda grasses I considered were Champion (C), Mini-Verde (MV) and TifEagle (TE).  All three are world class and I describe to my members the choice as being similar to choosing between a Mercedes, BMW or Jaguar—a lot is simply personal preference and nit-picks over tiny differences.
That said I did a lot of research and relied heavily on my superintendent Mark Hoban.  Frankly, my process to decide was this:

I read everything I could get my hands on re: the grasses.  Mark and I both spent hours on the phone with suppliers, dozens of course supers, owners, players in an attempt to learn all we could about the pros and cons of each grass.  Mark and his staff are phenomenal and ultimately I went with his recommendation that I am convinced is the best choice.
I do not want to get anyone in trouble but here is what we heard:
For Atlanta there was not a single super who regretted the decision to go from bent to the UD.
However, all "warned" us not to expect any savings (yes, entry level or lower end places can use triplexes and have a less aggressive protocol and have decent UD greens but that is not my course and triplexes are not an option on my greens--plus I want the best UD greens I can get and will spend the money for them.  Also, my members expect "high end" UD too and are paying for a great golf experience).
I know this is a bad word for many on this site but I have read several published, scholarly articles and have heard first hand issues relating to segregation in both Champion and Mini-Verde.  It may be splitting hairs but TE seems to be the only one of the three not displaying that characteristic.  One super who was a 100% Champion guy (he is at Memphis CC and was one of the first to promote Champion years ago—Rodney Lyndell I think??) is switching to TE and he presented a large amount of data from a UT study showing that ball roll/deviation on TE vs. Champion was measurabley better.  He absolutely felt it was due to the segregation in Champion and has been saying such for years. 

Before I get attacked here, let me say I do not know if the Champion/segregation issue is Champion's "fault" or if it is a result of cultural practices among some clubs--but I am convinced it is a fact.  With Rodney there is a former Champion “champion” who is convinced TE is better at least in this regard.
The consensus has been that TE is more cold tolerant and has faster green up in the spring.  Courses like Timuquana (one of my board members plays there a lot), Sea Island (sea side) and Frederica all have TE greens I have seen and they are phenomenal.  Also, my old assistant super, Lucas Walters, is the Head Super at Sea Island now and it will be nice for Mark to be able to have a former asst. growing the same grass.
The Atlanta Athletic Club converted to Champion about five years and I don’t think it is a secret to say they have struggled and continue to struggle with quality they want on their Highlands course.  They are undergoing a five month renovation next year to completely re-do bunkers, change out the diamond zoysia fairways and convert the Champion to TifEagle.  The new super has been growing both MV and TE side by side and comparing the results and for him, there is no comparison—TE is superior.  AAC is located about 3 miles from me as a crow flies.  It will be nice having a local club and super with the same grass J  AAC also looked into MV and while Ralph Kepple’s greens at East Lake are excellent, reports of MV in our area have been hit and miss.   

Additionally in 2010 Pat O'Brien came to my club to discuss UD and at dinner with my super and assistants he spoke even then of reported segregation issues in Champion and mini-verde and acknowledged that TE did not seem to have the same issue.  He was NOT ENDORSING any product and I hope I don't get him in trouble but his honest opinion was that TE would have been his choice back then had we decided to switch.
The developer of TE, Dr. Hanna, and Mark have know each other for years and that relationship is another positive in favor of TE.  TE is a Georgia grass and that's nice too   In fact, we are having an open house for our members and Dr. Hanna (the developer of TE) is coming to speak to our members about "his" grass.

  My "gut" tells me that Champion has an exceptional grass and did a phenomenal marketing job with an incredible protocol and support system for their no-till method; and, they were able to dominate the market in GA--but as great as it was, I am not sure it was necessarily the "best grass".

 Again, PLEASE, PLEASE understand that I feel all three are phenomenal and Champion or MV may be absolutely perfect for your club--I just think TE is right for me.

 The other "word on the street" is that if you want the fastest greens around, Champion is the way to go as it is slower growing than MV or TE.  As crazy as this may sound, I don't want greens rolling 12-14 on a daily basis.  I am shooting for a daily speed of 11.  I feel the TE can give us an excellent surface, phenomenal ball roll (arguabley and there is data behind this, the best of the three), great consistency and speed on a daily basis.  We were told that if we wanted to get the TE to that 12-14 level, it would take a little more work than the Champion (more grooming, more rolling, more frequent cutting at lower heights) all which the Champion seems to love, but that is not what I am looking for.

 Whew, sorry for the ramble and as you can imagine, my head is about to explode having digested lots of words and opinions these last few weeks (and years).

 For us, TE seems to be the best choice.

[Michael Whitaker]

Chris - this is great information! Thank you for taking the time to post your process.


A couple of courses in my area (Greenville, SC) are switching their greens to Diamond Zoysia this summer. Was that ever a consideration for you? I have not heard of DZ being used on the greens at many courses, but one (at Clemson University) did an extensive test on a trial green for two years before making their decision. Any thoughts?

[Chris Cupit]

Very interesting and yes    In fact, two winteres ago my super and I traveled to Greenville to look at two courses that were using DZ as a green surface.  (I can't remember the names right now).  It was intriguing but at the time we were not ready to switch and we were a little worried we could get the green speeds we wanted out of the DZ.  I think Palmetto Dunes is using DZ on their greens as well as some courses in Texas.


We have DZ on our tee boxes and on two greens--a practice bunker green and a practicing putting green near our golf shop.  We experimented with it and it took very aggressive cultural pracices--lots of grooming, mowing.... to get speeds near 10 and it was grainy when compared to bent or the UDs.  We mowed as low as .090 but still had trouble with speed.


I will say the DZ greens up incredibly quick in the spring, holds its color well into the fall and if you have shade issues, DZ is the grass for you (despite being a warm season grass).  The wear and tear is great too--very durable and no ball marks.


Please feel free to have your guy call Mark or me (770-993-2124) and we will be happy to discuss. 

Chris - this is great information! Thank you for taking the time to post your process.


A couple of courses in my area (Greenville, SC) are switching their greens to Diamond Zoysia this summer. Was that ever a consideration for you? I have not heard of DZ being used on the greens at many courses, but one (at Clemson University) did an extensive test on a trial green for two years before making their decision. Any thoughts?

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks, Chris!


Your passion comes through even in the words you type.  Rivermont is a great club because of your life-long commitment to it.  I'm proud (and very happy) to be a member.

[Mike_Young]

Chris,
I planted Champions three years ago and am ok with it but agree with what you say.  I put TE on three courses I did back when it first cam out in 1998 or 1999 in Miss and they have not mutated but as you mention my Champion has a few little issues there.  I will say, and I'm sure Mark already knows that the circular vertigrooming with a tri-plex works wonders and if you really wish to go bigtime look at the new electric controlled walkers.  The clip one can acheive is unreal and it makes all the difference. 
Also, acouple of years ago the TE was much cheaper than MV or Champions but that may have changed as now guys are leaning toward TE.  Plus , isn't it the only one that was developed and not "found"?
As you say they are all good and can be maintained to a level that is as good but "different" than bent. 
I think it will be interesting in a few years to see if young players who grew up on good UD greens would choose a good bent over the UD.    I'm not sure they would.

[Keith Phillips]

Chris, thanks for sharing your thoughts in so much detail - great information and best wishes through the transition.


Apologies for the slightly OT question but I couldn't resist...it sounds like you prefer bent and would keep bent if not for the very substantial play your course gets vs. other privates in the area.  I'm curious how you do the cost-benefit analysis of 'capping membership / raising dues / having improved conditions' vs. your current model, which sounds very, very successful but may lead to compromises on the golf course?

[Chris Cupit]

So far the response has been positive especially among my better players.  As you may know, I have a good number of scratch players who compete in lots of state and national events and they are excited about year round conditions of firmer and faster.


My seniors are OK.  Understandably, losing part of a season when you are a senior is more impactful than when you are younger but they will be able to play on temps throughout so the die hards wont have to miss any golf.  But I do feel bad that any of my members has to miss out on some golf .


Actually, the last two years have been almost right in line with "average" Atlanta years.  From 2006 until now, the last decade has been unusually hot--hotter than average for sure with (I think) three of the hottest years on record being in this ten year span.  The last two summers mirrored historical temps and our greens were excellent--we never even raised our height of cut last year (.125 all year).  Regardless, the temps are certainly hot "enough" and the UD, for all the reasons  I mentioned in this post, is our best move.


Come check them out this fall 

Chris,
I hope the project goes great; all you need is a "normal" July and August.  I think a lot of people in Georgia have been fooled by the last two summers into thinking that everything will be ok with bent greens.  If we have a more typical summer this year, and certainly June has seemed to be just that, then golfers will quickly remember why converting to one of the bermudas was/is desirable.

Did you get much push-back within the membership about the conversion?  And, if so, did it come from the better players?  Just curious based on what I've seen other places.

[Michael Whitaker]

Chris - you are correct... I think the primary reason Clemson went with DZ was because of the shade tolerance. When I asked them about their decision they said that speed was not their primary concern. As a public facility they want "enough" speed but not to stimp 11. Like you they are switching from bent, which struggles in the summer due to heat and rounds. It will be interesting to see how this turns out as they CAN'T get it wrong... they don't have the money to do it again in a few years.