FineGolf's Lorne Smith on Fescue Grass and Playability

[ward peyronnin]

Lorne just sent me this link to his comments on the Chambers Bay questions.

http://www.finegolf.co.uk/2015/06/running-golf-at-chambers-bay-exhilarates/

Note his recognition that many pros are not used to reading putts on greens that are this color. I had the same thought when all the complaining was going on and believe this to be a significant source of missed putts for these guys

Look for his interview with Ran on this site

[Sven Nilsen]

Ward:


Thanks for posting this, a refreshing and enlightening take in these times of naysayers, doubters, excuse-seekers and critics.  I'm sure his unwillingness to embrace any controversy will hurt his page clicks, but at least he's got it right.


Sven

[Paul Gray]

Thanks for this Ward. Always interested in Lorne's take on all things fescue.

[Steve Okula]

Lorne Smith errs  by stating that Poa annua is commonly referred to as Kentucky bluegrass. Poa annua is known in the U.S. as annual bluegrass, and in the Comonwealth countries as annual meadowgrass.

Kentucky bluegrass (aka common meadowgrass to those of the British persuasion) is a perennial species, Poa pratensis, and a much coarser grass, mainly used in golf course roughs and other, less demanding turf areas such as parks and lawns.

[Thomas Dai]

Ward,


Thanks for highlighting this. Lorne and his Finegolf stance are to be applauded IMO. Indeed, in the UK quite a few clubs seem to consider displaying the Finegolf logo as a kind of badge of honour.


I couldn't find Ran's interview with Lorne. Is it one yet to be posted herein? I did find Ran's June interview though, with that famous architect Par O'Dee, which is splendid.


Atb

[Jason Topp]

I love the spirit of Lorne's comments although some of the content is a bit off.  I suspect Jason Day has some experience with firm surfaces in Australia.  I also would be surprised if pros are unaware of the option of running the ball with an 8 iron or hybrid on chip shots. 
I find that the equation changes quite a bit depending on green speed.  At slower speeds such as those found on links courses, the running shot provides plenty of margin for error.  When green speeds are fast, I find it much more difficult to control such shots.  I suspect professionals reached the same conclusion at Chambers. 

[Bill_McBride]

Lorne Smith errs  by stating that Poa annua is commonly referred to as Kentucky bluegrass. Poa annua is known in the U.S. as annual bluegrass, and in the Comonwealth countries as annual meadowgrass.

Kentucky bluegrass (aka common meadowgrass to those of the British persuasion) is a perennial species, Poa pratensis, and a much coarser grass, mainly used in golf course roughs and other, less demanding turf areas such as parks and lawns.

Steve, what is the poa trivialis we used to overseed with?   Is that winter rye?   I'm really glad we were able to convince our members to stop that stuff, transitions were awful.

[Paul Gray]

I love the spirit of Lorne's comments although some of the content is a bit off.

Lorne is NOT an agronomist and is learning much as he goes along. Who isn't?


My experience of Lorne is limited to a few emails backwards and forwards when he published an essay of mine but my overwhelming impression of him is a passionate and enthusiast amateur who, rather than simply spouting off opinion without any real insight, if committed to further educating himself as he promotes enjoyable golf. His primary interest, I think it's fair to say, is turf, as opposed to architecture more generally. I know he is always keen to listen and learn to all and sundry within the world of turf and I'm sure will continue to do so in order to gain a greater understanding of exactly what produces the right turf for 'the running game' he so passionately promotes.


Frankly, I think the game is crying out for a few more amateur enthusiasts who are free to act without fear of denying themselves further pay cheques.

[Jason Topp]

I love the spirit of Lorne's comments although some of the content is a bit off.

Lorne is NOT an agronomist and is learning much as he goes along. Who isn't?


My experience of Lorne is limited to a few emails backwards and forwards when he published an essay of mine but my overwhelming impression of him is a passionate and enthusiast amateur who, rather than simply spouting off opinion without any real insight, if committed to further educating himself as he promotes enjoyable golf. His primary interest, I think it's fair to say, is turf, as opposed to architecture more generally. I know he is always keen to listen and learn to all and sundry within the world of turf and I'm sure will continue to do so in order to gain a greater understanding of exactly what produces the right turf for 'the running game' he so passionately promotes.


Frankly, I think the game is crying out for a few more amateur enthusiasts who are free to act without fear of denying themselves further pay cheques.

Paul:


I do not disagree with any of your sentiments.  Please note that none of my comments have anything to do with agronomy.  I have played golf with Lorne and got my tail kicked by him at Pennard.  I highly recommend the experience. 

[Kyle Harris]

Bill McBride,

Poa trivialis is Roughstalk bluegrass. The ryegrasses are of the genus Lolium, and I've never heard anyone outside of the scientific community refer to they as such.

[BCrosby]

Well said by Lorne. I do not know much about Fine Golf. I have signed up for their newsletter.


If you like the idea of reduced water and chemical usage, then you should be prepared to accept the consequences - not just for golf courses themselves, but also for the kinds of golf you will be asked to play on them.   



Bob

[Paul Gray]

Mr Crosby has reminded me of a point I've pondered on more than one occasion.

I'm not convinced that you can sell firm and fast to anyone as an environmental issue. The harsh reality is that golfers want whatever they consider to be the best. To hell with the environment in my life time is the mentality.

So, if you want to promote fine golf, as Lorne likes to call it, you have to focus on the 'fine' bit, rather than any concept of doing your bit to turn the taps off so as to be some kind of eco warrior.

PS: Jason, I hear you loud and clear.

[BCrosby]

Paul -


In the US the issue is the other way round. In most regions, whether now or later, golf courses will be forced to deal with unprecedented constraints on water and chemical use. It will soon not be possible to maintain verdant green golf courses 24/7/365.


P'hurst and C-Bay are not fiendish experiments concocted by Mike Davis out of the blue. They are in important respects the future of American golf, like it or not.


Personally, I like that future. The vast majority of American golfers will need to get used to it.


You Brits have the good fortune of a golfing culture that never expected its courses to be green everywhere and at all times. So perhaps you guys won't have as far to travel on the learning curve.


Bob


 

[Thomas Dai]

[size=78%]You Brits have the good fortune of a golfing culture that never expected its courses to be green everywhere and at all times. So perhaps you guys won't have as far to travel on the learning curve. [/size]
[/size][size=78%]Bob[/size]

Good points Bob, but even in the UK there are many who think green is God, masses of TV golf each week beamed in from all around the globe has had an effect. We may not have as far to go to "recover the situation", if that's the right phrase, but the issue is still relevant, installation of fairway irrigation on links courses being a prime example.


Atb

[Paul Gray]

Mr Crosby,

As Thomas says, 'Green is God' has long been the thinking of the average British golfer. I would suggest the damage was predominantly done during the 80's and 90's when all things 'American style' were perceived as progress.

Anyway, I understand exactly what you're saying about the necessity for firm and fast. My point was that it's simply not a good sales pitch. Unless you can persuade people that it is not only necessary but also utterly desirable from a purely golfing basis, I can't see it flying. All you do by trying to sell it as a necessary evil is promote the notion that the ultimate turf is lush green.

[Rich Goodale]

I have known Lorne for 20+ years and have played golf with him from time to time over that period, most recently a year or two ago.  He is a good person, who knows more and is willing to learn more about the interaction of various poas and fescues and bents than 99% or the people on this forum.  Give him a break.

[Paul Gray]

Rich,

Respectfully, I don't think anyone has anything but the upmost respect for Lorne. I think Jason made one comment about one minor error and that's about it.

[Niall C]

Mr Crosby,

As Thomas says, 'Green is God' has long been the thinking of the average British golfer. I would suggest the damage was predominantly done during the 80's and 90's when all things 'American style' were perceived as progress.

Anyway, I understand exactly what you're saying about the necessity for firm and fast. My point was that it's simply not a good sales pitch. Unless you can persuade people that it is not only necessary but also utterly desirable from a purely golfing basis, I can't see it flying. All you do by trying to sell it as a necessary evil is promote the notion that the ultimate turf is lush green.

Disagree. I think quite a lot of UK golfers don't really care too much about the colour but do care about condition. Often green means lush and mottled colours with browns etc equate to dry which golfers generally prefer. And I'm not just talking about links golfers.


Niall

[Tom Kelly]

I find that the equation changes quite a bit depending on green speed.  At slower speeds such as those found on links courses, the running shot provides plenty of margin for error.  When green speeds are fast, I find it much more difficult to control such shots.  I suspect professionals reached the same conclusion at Chambers.

Really good point.

[Adam Clayman]

Jason, In relative terms, the greens were not that fast at CB. Certainly not as fast as pros are used to, or want. Also, the firmness of the greens, beginning on Thursday, was not as firm as the eye would have the player believe. If there was one reoccurring motif, from all the shots I saw played into those greens was that the player came up short. Again, the firmness wasn't correlating to the color.

[Adam Lawrence]

Jeeps, I dunno Adam. I was told that they were measured at 12 foot 3 inches on one day. Bearing in mind the severity of slope on those greens, I think that's pretty quick.

[Steve Okula]

Jason, In relative terms, the greens were not that fast at CB. Certainly not as fast as pros are used to, or want. Also, the firmness of the greens, beginning on Thursday, was not as firm as the eye would have the player believe. If there was one reoccurring motif, from all the shots I saw played into those greens was that the player came up short. Again, the firmness wasn't correlating to the color.

I also heard 12 foot green speeds reported. Is it possible approach shots were finishing short as players wanted to putt from below the hole and most greens slope back to front?