RTJ2 responds to Gary Player

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Brief but nasty:


http://digitalmag.globalgolfpost.com/20150622?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Chambers%20Bay%20criticism&utm_campaign=Reminder-Tuesday-6-23#&pageSet=24&page=0&contentItem=0

[paul cowley]

I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect Player's public disparagement of anothers work is a bit out of bounds. Constructive criticism yes...media rants no.

[Mike_Young]

Jim Hansen's book says so much and yet leaves much unsaid.  I think the entire thing is funny and almost like a cat fight. 

Some architectural families have always felt the door should have closed behind them. 

Of course neither should have spoken about the course but they did.

[George Pazin]

I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect this kind of public disparagement is a bit out of bounds. Polite criticism yes...media rants no.

I say, the more info the better, but it is incumbent on the media to report potential conflicts. There was a comment from a gentleman who said Player was not chosen to design the course - that should be reported by anyone who chooses to pass along his comments, so it can be put into proper context.

[Sven Nilsen]

I spoke briefly with RTJ Jr. twice over the weekend.  His pride in Chambers hosting the US Open was very evident.  I'm sure Player's response seemed like a frontal attack, and I give him credit for what in light of all the circumstances was a very measured response.


Player may have been halfway correct in the message he was trying to get across, but he chose his words poorly.  It was not a time for hyperbole.


Sven

[Paul Gray]

Is this the same Gary Player who once said all courses were good and no architect deserved to have his work criticised?

Great player, not such a great man.

[cary lichtenstein]

I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect Player's public disparagement of anothers work is a bit out of bounds. Constructive criticism yes...media rants no.

I totally agree

[Tom_Doak]

I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect Player's public disparagement of anothers work is a bit out of bounds. Constructive criticism yes...media rants no.

Paul:


Should I not put my thoughts on Diamante (Dunes) in the front of The Confidential Guide, then?  Or is it okay as long as I say nothing but positive stuff?

[Adam Lawrence]

I think there is a pretty easy to determine line between being a critic and being an arse. At least, I thought it was pretty easy to determine in this case.

[jeffwarne]

I think there is a pretty easy to determine line between being a critic and being an arse. At least, I thought it was pretty easy to determine in this case.














Or that 1000 pushups a day doesn't offset the onset of dimentia

[Adam Clayman]

Thanks Steve.

Sven, Pride?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Think I would have responded more along the lines of

"I agree with Mr. Player about 99%." Sure, if every public golf course was like Chambers Bay, golf might be in trouble.  But, one of the beauties of golf is that every course is different.  Every client's goal is different, including a few visionary municipalities.  In this case, no one is going to travel 500+ miles to play the same course they can get at home.  We should celebrate that good golf courses compel golfers to do this.

We should also celebrate that the US Open is played on a public course, and golf is getting more diverse,  the US Open is played on a course that is not pristine green, but shades of greens and browns and golf is getting greener (Point of fact, Mr. Player, for all it's 7,900 yards, we irrigation only 70 acres of turf).

Most of all, we should celebrate that all golf courses are different, and that variety that makes golf great, not try to cram it into one little preconceived box."

[Greg Clark]

I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect Player's public disparagement of anothers work is a bit out of bounds. Constructive criticism yes...media rants no.

Paul:


Should I not put my thoughts on Diamante (Dunes) in the front of The Confidential Guide, then?  Or is it okay as long as I say nothing but positive stuff?

As a pre-purchaser of the book I look forward to reading your comments.  My question to you is will they be your honest thoughts, or will they be laced with hyperbole designed to draw attention to yourself?  I believe Mr. Player certainly had a bit of the latter in his interview.

[Terry Lavin]

I think there is a pretty easy to determine line between being a critic and being an arse. At least, I thought it was pretty easy to determine in this case.














Or that 1000 pushups a day doesn't offset the onset of dimentia

Agreed.  The man is Trumplike in his thirst for remaining in the "news".  We should only hear from him Thursday morning, first round of the Masters, when he swings the club and kicks his leg up in the air.  One on, 364 off.

[Joe Bausch]

Time to lighten up this Player thread with my lone experience with him, this posted before but will be new to many of you:I've had one GP experience and it was a beaut.  2003 SR PGA Champ at Aronimink, 1st round, I get him, Floyd, and Kite to score for.  I had heard that GP could be interesting after a round in the scorers tent, and I was ready.  RF had played poorly and was outta there before I could sit down and wasn't interested in triple-checking his score w/ mine.  TK was super polite, and after reading off the scores, again thanked me for volunteering.  Then GP proceeds to have me read the scores for the front, then the back, then the back again, then the front again, the front in reverse, back in reverse, then from memory he recalls each score himself, etc, etc.  TK has decided to stay in the trailer and experience the whole thing.  When finally done checking his score every way under creation, GP goes on this long speech to Kite about why he does this relating to being DQed in a GGO round years ago.  "So Tom, the last thing I do before leaving the scorer's tent is make darn sure I haven't signed for a wrong score", he says.  Then Tom quips, "Well, that is very nice Gary.  But I would suggest the last thing you do today before leaving the scorer's tent is zip up your fly".  GP had gone to the player's restroom right after the round and had forgotten to zip up.  Priceless.

[paul cowley]

I support player's rights to be critical of how a course is designed, looks or plays...but as an architect Player's public disparagement of anothers work is a bit out of bounds. Constructive criticism yes...media rants no.

Paul:


Should I not put my thoughts on Diamante (Dunes) in the front of The Confidential Guide, then?  Or is it okay as long as I say nothing but positive stuff?

Absolutely put your thoughts in...the good and the bad. That's what I consider constructive criticism. Personally I learn more from good criticism than kind compliments. In the video Player looked like he was off his meds or overdosed. The course design wasn't the issue as much as the USGA set up and maintenance program errors.


...so fire away if you want...this isn't the business for those with thin skin, and I can assure you mine's become rather leather like.

[Nigel Islam]

Time to lighten up this Player thread with my lone experience with him, this posted before but will be new to many of you:I've had one GP experience and it was a beaut.  2003 SR PGA Champ at Aronimink, 1st round, I get him, Floyd, and Kite to score for.  I had heard that GP could be interesting after a round in the scorers tent, and I was ready.  RF had played poorly and was outta there before I could sit down and wasn't interested in triple-checking his score w/ mine.  TK was super polite, and after reading off the scores, again thanked me for volunteering.  Then GP proceeds to have me read the scores for the front, then the back, then the back again, then the front again, the front in reverse, back in reverse, then from memory he recalls each score himself, etc, etc.  TK has decided to stay in the trailer and experience the whole thing.  When finally done checking his score every way under creation, GP goes on this long speech to Kite about why he does this relating to being DQed in a GGO round years ago.  "So Tom, the last thing I do before leaving the scorer's tent is make darn sure I haven't signed for a wrong score", he says.  Then Tom quips, "Well, that is very nice Gary.  But I would suggest the last thing you do today before leaving the scorer's tent is zip up your fly".  GP had gone to the player's restroom right after the round and had forgotten to zip up.  Priceless.

Thanks Joe that made my day!

[Steve Okula]

 Why all the animosity towards Gary Player?  Carefully checking a scorecard, even obsessively so, or forgetting to zip a fly, are not character flaws.
With nine major titles, including the 1965 U.S.Open, I reckon Player has earned the right to express an opinion on Chambers Bay. Note that he may have ripped the golf course, but he made no personal attack on Jones, as some of you are now doing to Player, ironically accusing him of a lack of class.
I have met both Jones and Player, and as far as egos are concerned, Player has nothing on Jones.
What’s more, Player in 1983 founded a charity, the Player Foundation, which has donated over $50 million to the support of children's charities. He has contributed much of his own, time, property, and money to provide educational opportuntities to underpriveliged children in South Africa.
Jack Nicklaus named a son in honor of Gary Player, and I trust his judgment more than that of the character assassins on this site.
 

[Joe Bausch]

Strong words Steve.

[archie_struthers]

 




Gary's stuff isn't too good .  Quirky , but sharp dog legs abound

[Phil Young]

Steve,

My problem with what GP stated is that he forgot to add something... I've done these same things in my own designs and I won't do them any longer. For example, he criticized the length of CB yet his design of the Gary Player Country Club is 7,000 as well... not yards but METERS... I believe that when that is converted to yards it is pretty close in length to CB.

When was the last time he told a potential client that he would only design a course for them if it didn't exceed 6,800 yards from the tips because someone has to take a stand against the manufacturers and governing bodies who have created this distance mess?

He knows far better than most that an architect feeds his family by designing courses based on the parameters set forth by the client and not the architect.

RTJ had nothing to do with either course setup or how the grass has grown in. To condemn his design for these is also wrong in my opinion.

Is CB a top ten course? No. Is it a top 100? possibly. is it a course that can produce a championship worthy of a memorable finish that wil remembered far long past the days of gca.com debates? It already has...

[Tom_Doak]

My problem with what GP stated is that he forgot to add something... I've done these same things in my own designs and I won't do them any longer. For example, he criticized the length of CB yet his design of the Gary Player Country Club is 7,000 as well... not yards but METERS... I believe that when that is converted to yards it is pretty close in length to CB.

Phil:


To be fair, the Gary Player Country Club at Sun City is at about 6000 feet elevation, so you have to tack on 10% extra distance just to stay even with sea level there.  It's a pretty bad course, in my estimation, but it's really not that long, for a course which used to host a tournament every year.  [Not sure if it still does.]


P.S.  Also, that whole "gotta feed your family" line is commonly used to justify things we're ashamed of.  It should have been retired after W.W. II. 

[Mike_Young]

RTJ had nothing to do with either course setup or how the grass has grown in. To condemn his design for these is also wrong in my opinion.

Hmmmm...i wonder how much he had to do with the design?

[paul cowley]

Steve - I don't have a problem with GP as a player or his design organization...some are friends of mine (who were probably cringing a bit). I do have a problem with his 5 minute rant...where he started by saying the designer must have one leg shorter than the other and then blamed the course (and others like this one) for being too long, ruining family togetherness, a 15 handicap would shoot 115, overwatered , said his father was just as bad...blah blah etc. When asked at the end who is to blame, the USGA or the designer?, he said the designer was to blame for this "monster".


Are you sure we watched the same video?

[paul cowley]

.