Is Chambers Bay the Moment the Public "Gets It"?

[Brent Hutto]

Apropos my comment from a couple days ago, it seems clear now that the US Open is indeed being played on shitty greens. Not nearly as bad as my recollection of the one time Pebble but the worst I can recall seeing in the past couple decades other than that one exception.


I do believe that over the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds most players will adjust by hitting their mid-length putts much firmer. It was pretty clear by the end of the morning wave and totally obvious for the afternoon groups that the usual Tour practice of letting 6-12 foot putts die into the front edge of the hole has virtually zero chance of working on these greens. A couple of Tiger's putts (BTW, remember back when the Real Tiger used to jam *every* putt hard enough to go 4-5 feet past if it missed?) were dead in the heart when they were 6" from the front edge and ended up kicking left or right at random and not even touching the hole.


Surely the best players in the world are going to switch to little more pace at the hole. Of course then we'd see plenty of missed three footers coming back because of the same issues with the darned grass on the greens.


I'm with Adrian. "More to the point will the 5% that think they got it realise it did not work."

[Terry Lavin]

It makes for bad American television, that's for sure.

[Marc Haring]

I was on a night shift last night so watched the Tiger group all the way to the very bitter end on video streaming. I think it might be time to admit that this whole fescue experiment has been a total failure. I also participated in the sandtrap forum and everyone to a man ended up saying the greens were nothing short of hideous. 

[archie_struthers]

I'm  really surprised that very few here seem to appreciate yesterday's  golf.  Haven't you played in some less than perfect conditions and had fun, or figured out how to adapt ? . Is this the same group who used to say bunkers can be and should be hazards?  That they softened and dumbed down golf courses in the quest for fairness. 


The greens are too bumpy.  Wah.    The poa is growing and it looks bad , wah.   What happened to this crew .


These are the best players in the world , someone will figure it out , and they will win .  Nicklaus would have loved the crybabies as he knew they were done before they teed it up .  C'mon boys , buck it up

[Terry Lavin]

Good message, bad messenger.

[Richard Choi]

Judge, now you are on "bad green" bandwagon? What happened to "bad bounce" band wagon?

[John Kavanaugh]

When you fork over a days pay to play a course and appreciate fast smooth greens you suddenly don't get it.  Nice.  The people who are telling us to get over poor conditioning play far too much golf under privileged conditions.


You don't sit in a chair designed by Frank Lloyd Wright for a reason.  It's uncomfortable.  Funny thing, that doesn't make it a bad chair.  An even funnier thing, if you were a billionaire you would sit in one for another reason.  Because you can.  The bad is good crowd doesn't get it just cause they got it.

[Mike Hendren]

I'm  really surprised that very few here seem to appreciate yesterday's  golf.  Haven't you played in some less than perfect conditions and had fun, or figured out how to adapt ? . Is this the same group who used to say bunkers can be and should be hazards?  That they softened and dumbed down golf courses in the quest for fairness. 


The greens are too bumpy.  Wah.    The poa is growing and it looks bad , wah.   What happened to this crew .


These are the best players in the world , someone will figure it out , and they will win .  Nicklaus would have loved the crybabies as he knew they were done before they teed it up .  C'mon boys , buck it up

+1

[Jason Thurman]

Unfortunately, we can all see where this is going. In prime time on Sunday, the leaders are going to be putting on patchy, bumpy greens. I don't think they're rolling much worse than the ones at Pebble or Torrey in past Opens, but they certainly look worse and have more bare spots.


Personally, there's a lot I like about Chambers. I love the boldness of the course. I love that between the soft sand and the rear fescue eyelashes, the bunkers are actually playing like hazards. I love the firm and fast conditions. I love that the TV coverage is finally making full use of ProTracer. I even think the greens are rolling okay so far in spite of how bad they look in spots.


But the public legacy of this tournament is going to be awful greens. Just as Pinehurst did last year, this year's open is setting the sustainability movement a few years further backwards. Don't be surprised if Erin Hills puts white sand in all their bunkers and starts planting trees later this summer. The worst thing that can happen for their public acceptance in 2017 will be to have viewers tune in and say "Oh, this looks like that awful course from a couple years ago."

[jeffwarne]

Anyone who knows me knows I'm all for old school minimalism and applaud lower inputs, lower maintenance costs,firm and fast, etc. etc.
But with 8 years to prepare, 22 million spent, the typical gazillion field staff,and crew provide to stage such an event. I struggle to see why any club would ever consider fescue-knowing they would have far less resources and expertise than Chambers Bay has leading up to the event.
It evidently rolls quite well in the morning beforte the poa pops up-unfortunatlely the downside of "prime time" Open coverage is most people watched them in the afternoon/evening where it was plinko as the ball slowed down-the last roll was always sideways off a poa plant.


Chambers looks awesome to me and I'm enjoying it-I'd even like to play there.
I will say the greens look nothing like the 150 links courses I've played in the UK/ireland but I understand every climate/soil is different.




I just need someone to explain to me the advantages of using fescue on greens so I can understand the tradeoff.
Because unless I'm mistaken-I see a tradeoff.


To be fair the USGA turned the greens at Pebble(plinko) and Shinny to shite also, so perhaps it's not a fescue issue,but a setup issue.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,


The biggest advantage is that no matter how poorly they putt the raters will give them a pass.

[Benjamin Litman]

Architecturally, the worst part about Chambers Bay--and the part that makes me disinclined to fly out there to play it--are the green-to-tee walks. They are egregiously long and arduous and a poor reflection on RTJII. Those walks are part of golf-course architecture--even though they're never mentioned in the mainstream media--and play a huge role in the overall experience. Their length at Chambers Bay is also perplexing, given that cart paths were not built. If you're going to build a walking golf course, make it walkable.

[Brent Hutto]

Architecturally, the worst part about Chambers Bay--and the part that makes me disinclined to fly out there to play it--are the green-to-tee walks. They are egregiously long and arduous and a poor reflection on RTJII. Those walks are part of golf-course architecture--even though they're never mentioned in the mainstream media--and play a huge role in the overall experience. Their length at Chambers Bay is also perplexing, given that cart paths were not built. If you're going to build a walking golf course, make it walkable.

I'm not saying I wouldn't want to have a go at Chambers Bay if I ever managed to be anywhere within a couple hundred miles. But for all the huge upsides of a course with so much width and such extreme contouring of the greens (both of which I purely LOVE) along with a typical firm-and-fast presentation I've got to say the whole fescue thing is a downside, not a plus. And I totally fail to miss the point on a course where carts are not allowed being laid out like the most egregious of what are derided here as "cart ball routings".


As far as I can tell there was, if not a totally blank slate, certainly ample room and the opportunity for a wide range of shaping options available to the designers. The fact that they apparently made what would in any case be a fairly strenuous walk even longer and more taxing purely to optimize the number of times players climb up high to have nice views...well, that just seems wrongheaded to me. I guess in the end maybe I like fun-to-walk courses as much or more as I like fun-to-play ones.

[Will Lozier]

I'm  really surprised that very few here seem to appreciate yesterday's  golf.  Haven't you played in some less than perfect conditions and had fun, or figured out how to adapt ? . Is this the same group who used to say bunkers can be and should be hazards?  That they softened and dumbed down golf courses in the quest for fairness. 

The greens are too bumpy.  Wah.    The poa is growing and it looks bad , wah.   What happened to this crew .

These are the best players in the world , someone will figure it out , and they will win .  Nicklaus would have loved the crybabies as he knew they were done before they teed it up .  C'mon boys , buck it up

Ditto...I thought it played fine as the scores indicate and there are tons of interesting shots.

[Will Lozier]

I'm  really surprised that very few here seem to appreciate yesterday's  golf.  Haven't you played in some less than perfect conditions and had fun, or figured out how to adapt ? . Is this the same group who used to say bunkers can be and should be hazards?  That they softened and dumbed down golf courses in the quest for fairness. 

The greens are too bumpy.  Wah.    The poa is growing and it looks bad , wah.   What happened to this crew .

These are the best players in the world , someone will figure it out , and they will win .  Nicklaus would have loved the crybabies as he knew they were done before they teed it up .  C'mon boys , buck it up

Ditto...I thought it played fine as the scores indicate and there are tons of interesting shots.

[Garland Bayley]

... Which holes had the windmill and clown's mouth? Miniature golf is "fun" too. Sorry, the putting surfaces are much smoother and more consistant on most mini golf courses. The US Open venue is supposed to showcase the best of American golf and this is not it. But it will be a fun time for fans of Putt Putt golf.

Pat Mucci wants to know if you have played the course.

[Colin Shellard]

I have to say I quite enjoyed the coverage I saw yesterday. There were some great shots, some terrible shots that got great results, some great shots that got terrible results, and some frankly terrible rolls on the greens. I saw a putt from Darren Clarke from about 10' that was breaking left to right straight into the hole until an inch out when it promptly looked like it hit a rock and started breaking the other way. Almost as if the hole was crowned - absolutely horrible.


I have to agree with the last few posters about the green to tee walks - I think this is a bit of a mistake on the part of the architect if the course is walking only, especially as he had a blank sheet of paper to start with. I love the slopes on the course, but some of them seem to be a bit false and manufactured - especially the continually raised tees.

[Garland Bayley]

For those of you that have not played the course, the green to tee walks are no worse that one of your favorites, Pacific Dunes. So please stop making fools of yourselves with your ignorant comments.

[John Kirk]

For those of you that have not played the course, the green to tee walks are no worse that one of your favorites, Pacific Dunes. So please stop making fools of yourselves with your ignorant comments.

I strenuously object.  I estimate Pacific Dunes has shorter green to tee walks by 20-40%, and overall it is much easier to walk.

 

[Brent Hutto]

How about Old Mac at Bandon. What're the walks like there?

[Benjamin Litman]

For those of you that have not played the course, the green to tee walks are no worse that one of your favorites, Pacific Dunes. So please stop making fools of yourselves with your ignorant comments.

You are correct, Garland, I haven't played the course, but I haven't played Pacific Dunes either. If that is the case at Pacific Dunes (although John doesn't seem to think it is), then I would have the same issue with Pacific Dunes.

[John Kirk]

Disclaimer: John's in a crabby mood the last couple days.

My opinion is that Old Macdonald is a little tougher walk than Pacific Dunes, because you climb up and down two significant dune ridges on holes 3, 7, 14 and 15.  The green to tee walks are very short, though, maybe only 50-70 yards away on average.

Pacific Dunes has a couple of longer walks: 3 to 4, 17 to 18, and especially 11 to 12.  13 to 14 is a short, steep climb.

Chambers Bay's routing is much more sensible when playing a normal yardage (6500 or so yards).  At that distance the only long walks are 3 to 4, 9 to 10, and 14 to 15.  But it's hilly, and a harder walk than Pacific Dunes.  C'mon man!

[archie_struthers]

 


Just for the record I'm not for projects like Chambers Bay , unless someone spends their own money. It's obvious that the fescue grasses don't work as well on the greens, Whistling  Straits had similar issues with their grow in and attempt to use same .


What is clear is that CB is quirky , rewards playing smart and has a little more luck involved than might normally be the case .  I'm down with all of the above !

[Pete Lavallee]

With no shade issues the modern bent grass IMO would keep the poa out.  They also require much less water.  Some of the fescue elitist haven't experienced the modern bents in a non Arb setting and might be surprised.    Enjoying the US Open.   

Please name one golf course on the West Coast whose bent grass has kept the Poa out? This ranks as the most uninformed statement in the history of GCA!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Anyone who knows me knows I'm all for old school minimalism and applaud lower inputs, lower maintenance costs,firm and fast, etc. etc.
But with 8 years to prepare, 22 million spent, the typical gazillion field staff,and crew provide to stage such an event. I struggle to see why any club would ever consider fescue-knowing they would have far less resources and expertise than Chambers Bay has leading up to the event.
It evidently rolls quite well in the morning beforte the poa pops up-unfortunatlely the downside of "prime time" Open coverage is most people watched them in the afternoon/evening where it was plinko as the ball slowed down-the last roll was always sideways off a poa plant.


Chambers looks awesome to me and I'm enjoying it-I'd even like to play there.
I will say the greens look nothing like the 150 links courses I've played in the UK/ireland but I understand every climate/soil is different.




I just need someone to explain to me the advantages of using fescue on greens so I can understand the tradeoff.
Because unless I'm mistaken-I see a tradeoff.

Jeff - I don't know if there are any advantages at tournament level golf, you have grass which is best suited to being mown at 8mm, it loves high ground typically colonising the higher portions of greens or surrounds, rarely will it survive in lower ground as the extra rainfall seems to favour bents and poa. In the UK it is in seed mixtures often for a nurse crop, I think a pure fescue green is almost impossible if it is more than three years old. Fescue looks horrible with poa annua rosettes, if you have the two together what is good for one plant is a horrible life for the other. Fescue actually has good wear tolerance if left at a +6mm, its problem is that it is not aggressive so when or if you get wear, it takes ages to recover and usually turfing is the better option. Most people cut them too short because of the demands of speed so the plant is always stressed, under stressed conditions its performance suffers. It could have a place on approaches and surrounds because of the height of cut could be up to 10mm and still be firm and fast but I think you need bent grass on the greens themselves and if the USGA would have done that then we might just be getting more people to like these types of courses.
I suppose the plus point of fescue is it allows you to get to firm and fast with plenty of tolerance, where as other grasses are more water hungry and too wet > firm and fast > grass has died...... may be a period of three days in some climates