Potential future U.S. Open venues

[JJShanley]

I would like to see Whistling Straits host a US Open but that would be far off and Erin Hills would have to flop like Bethpage Black did. I think the US Open will end up with 15 courses that rotate.

Can you explain the Bethpage flop?  Flop as in fail, or as in switch to the PGA in affiliation?

[Phil McDade]

I love some of the courses that have been suggested in this thread. I see the US Open going back to some old courses from 20 or 30 or 40 years ago but it would probably be in the South such as Southern Hills in Tulsa.


I don't see the pendulum swinging back to old, short courses like Merion or Medinah.

There is little that is short about Medinah, and it can be extended in several places:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53660.0.html

[DFarron]

Brookside CC, Canton OH....will never happen, no infrastructure, 100,000 population...but grow a tiny bit of rough and it would be a formidable test.

[Phil McDade]

Brookside CC, Canton OH....will never happen, no infrastructure, 100,000 population...but grow a tiny bit of rough and it would be a formidable test.

The exact location of the course is less important than the geographic region where it's held, and a U.S. Open in Canton would draw from all over the northeastern Ohio area, given it hasn't had a major there in a very long time. Whether Brookside can handle the infrastructure -- others here would know better.

[DFarron]

Brookside CC, Canton OH....will never happen, no infrastructure, 100,000 population...but grow a tiny bit of rough and it would be a formidable test.

The exact location of the course is less important than the geographic region where it's held, and a U.S. Open in Canton would draw from all over the northeastern Ohio area, given it hasn't had a major there in a very long time. Whether Brookside can handle the infrastructure -- others here would know better.

Pretty far from Cleveland, roads to the freeways not good for travel, not sure they would have enough hotel rooms, however Ohio is overdue for an US Open. Double Eagle and The Golf Club would be great but those pesky regulations about inclusion would rule them out.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

How about Aronimink?

With the AT&T a few years in the rear-view mirror, and the 2018 BMW Championship on the horizon, it’s no secret that Aronimink is positioning itself as “Major” worthy.  It’s also no secret that when it comes to the Open in Philadelphia, there are only three courses that seem to matter to the USGA: Merion (East), Merion (East), and Merion (East).   

[Tim Gavrich]

This seems to bring up another key question: should the USGA seek to bring the U.S. Open to places where it hasn't been? I think the Sea-Tac area is big enough to be worthy of hosting on an occasional basis, but Canton, OH? When there's already a strong annual event in nearby Akron? Seems doubtful.


Same with Bandon - in all honesty I think that's a pipe dream. Maybe in thirty or forty years, when/if that area is a lot more populated/has better infrastructure, but not anytime remotely soon, if ever.


Besides, if the USGA were really serious about bringing the US Open to new sites in a democratic fashion, wouldn't/shouldn't they be willing to try and move it around on the schedule in order to hold it in Florida or Texas every so often, too?

[BHoover]

Because it's my favorite course, I wouldn't want the USGA getting its tentacles on Canton Brookside.

I understand that the modern Open (much like a military campaign) requires logistics. But why should logistics and the size of the metro area matter more than whether a course is worthy of hosting a tournament? Unfortunately, in my opinion, it seems to be the case that the USGA is more concerned with taking the Open to an area more than taking it to a particular course.

[Phil McDade]

This seems to bring up another key question: should the USGA seek to bring the U.S. Open to places where it hasn't been? I think the Sea-Tac area is big enough to be worthy of hosting on an occasional basis, but Canton, OH? When there's already a strong annual event in nearby Akron? Seems doubtful.


Besides, if the USGA were really serious about bringing the US Open to new sites in a democratic fashion, wouldn't/shouldn't they be willing to try and move it around on the schedule in order to hold it in Florida or Texas every so often, too?

Tim:


The USGA doesn't really care about where the PGA Tour puts its tournaments -- you can find plenty of U.S. Open sites in past years in the same metro area that holds PGA Tour stops regularly. Focus less on Canton proper and more so northeastern Ohio (bias alert: I grew up there), and you have a region that I'd argue would attend and support a U.S. Open in droves.


In addition, the USGA is keen on rotating its signature championship to various regions around the country -- it's exactly why Chambers Bay was selected to host this year's Open; the blue coats think the good folks of the Northwest ought to be able to see and host their biggest tournament (helps w/ corporate sponsorship as well). I think, however, their June schedule hurts the chances of Texas and esp. Florida site hosting -- it hasn't been to Texas since Champions in 1969, and I don't believe the championship has ever been in Florida.

[Tim Gavrich]

Because it's my favorite course, I wouldn't want the USGA getting its tentacles on Canton Brookside.

I understand that the modern Open (much like a military campaign) requires logistics. But why should logistics and the size of the metro area matter more than whether a course is worthy of hosting a tournament? Unfortunately, in my opinion, it seems to be the case that the USGA is more concerned with taking the Open to an area more than taking it to a particular course.

My understanding is that the USGA makes a lot of money on the US Open, and loses a lot on every other championship it hosts. So logistics and fan experience ostensibly have to win out (even though it seems the fan experience wasn't overly positive at Chambers Bay). And because the USGA manipulates existing courses for the tournament anyway, that widens the field of potential Open venues, if anything.

Which is why the USGA ought to consider building a couple tailor-made US Open venues in markets where there's a need. It's not exactly a great environment for new golf courses, but I imagine the USGA would have little trouble getting people to plunk down $200 to play a guaranteed future U.S. Open site near, say, Denver, if they want to bring it there but Cherry Hills is too short and Colorado GC is otherwise unsuitable.


Phil--


I take you at your word about NE OH, for sure - I imagine a U.S. Open would be very successful there. Where should/could it legitimately be held? Firestone? I found a Brookside scorecard online listing 7,155 as the tips yardage, par 71. Knock 3 (518) and 18 (529) down to par fours and you have a par of 69 that would probably be defended pretty well.


If the "good folks of the Northwest ought to be able to see and host [the USGA's] biggest tournament," then the good folks in major metro areas like Orlando, Houston, Dallas and Phoenix deserve the USGA's consideration, too. As huge a hotbed of golf as Florida is, it's bizarre at the very least that the USGA hasn't found a way to make a US Open happen down here. Why not move it from Father's Day weekend to Columbus Day weekend in a non-Ryder Cup year? Or extend the Florida Swing by a week and hold it in March right after the clocks spring forward? Or is it mandatory that the Masters be the first major every year, no matter what?

[/size][/color]
[/size]Does the US Tennis Association get pressure to move their own US Open all over the country? If they do, they certainly haven't caved to it.[/color]

[BHoover]

I don't think there's any course in NE Ohio capable of holding a modern US Open. I don't even know that there's any course in Ohio that would fit the bill--maybe Inverness, but even it may have been seen its final major.

There surely are great venues for Senior Opens, Women's Opens, etc., such as Inverness, Canterbury, Scioto (and probably a few others). But I don't know that a modern Open or PGA will be returning to Ohio anytime soon if only because I don't think any course currently has the length, let alone meet the logistical demands, of a modern major championship. I'm not saying it's right, but it's reality.

[BHoover]

Let's think about the likely "regular" venues (every 10 years):
Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Pinehurst

Likely "occasional" venues (every 15 years):
Torrey Pines, Winged Foot, Congressional, Chambers Bay(?), Olympic, Southern Hills, Erin Hills(?)

Less frequent venues (more than 15 years):
Merion, LACC, The Country Club

Potential future venues:
Olympia Fields, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Medinah, Bethpage, Aronimink

[John McCarthy]

Why think small?  Expand Northerly Island just south of Chicago's downtown from it's present 91 acres to 600 plus acres.  Sand cap it and create one smaller course (with lowish green fee) and a championship course for the permanent home of the Western/BMW Championship and US Open every 15 years.  Leftover land will be parks and beaches.  Have McPier own it so everyone can get their beak wet.  What do we need?  A law in Springfield allowing it - infill is state property.  Get the other states in the Great Lakes Compact to sign off on it.  Issue a few bonds, do environmental impact statement (new natural area with bushes to appease the birders, tie into city water and sewer for water quality).     

[Phil McDade]

Which is why the USGA ought to consider building a couple tailor-made US Open venues in markets where there's a need. It's not exactly a great environment for new golf courses, but I imagine the USGA would have little trouble getting people to plunk down $200 to play a guaranteed future U.S. Open site near, say, Denver, if they want to bring it there but Cherry Hills is too short and Colorado GC is otherwise unsuitable.

I think that's what they've essentially done at Chambers Bay and Erin Hills -- two courses probably re-worked more by the USGA than any other U.S. Open site (and you can maybe add in BBlack as well).


I've long (well, for the past few years or so) wondered whether the USGA has boxed itself in here with its decision to avoid the technology arms race and yet move its major money-making tournament around the country. It's pretty clear that, under Davis, any course that hosts the Open has to be open to being disfigured altered renovated to his annual whims, and it's a pretty stout old-line, classic-era course (TCC, Merion, Olympia) that's willing to do that AND is situated in a place where the USGA wants to go and has the surrounding infrastructure to handle the zoo-like conditions of hosting that thing.


There are maybe a small handful of courses -- Shinnecock and Oakmont come to mind -- that are so good and tough that you don't need radical surgery to get them in US Open shape; like Brian, I agree those are courses that are part of a permanent U.S. Open rotation. But I've got to think that at some point, this all just gets out of hand, and the USGA somehow funds or helps legitimize (like they did at Erin Hills, and really with CBay) distinct courses that are "U.S. Open" courses ala the PGA's "stadium" course attempts several years ago.


And on another note, I'm pretty sure Mike Davis does not care about the fan experience on the ground of the US Open. I'm pretty sure he cares a lot about raking in prime-time ratings for a championship with a crazy ending, and maybe a bit about the green conditions. The Open will be back at CBay, rest assured.

[Alex Miller]

Let's think about the likely "regular" venues (every 10 years):
Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Pinehurst

Likely "occasional" venues (every 15 years):
Torrey Pines, Winged Foot, Congressional, Chambers Bay(?), Olympic, Southern Hills, Erin Hills(?)

Less frequent venues (more than 15 years):
Merion, LACC, The Country Club

Potential future venues:
Olympia Fields, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Medinah, Bethpage, Aronimink

This looks fairly accurate, though I could see many of the "occasional" venues moving to less frequent as the number of courses in the Rota increases.


I'd add Olympic to the "occasionals" to the Bay area once in a while, as well as potentially Riviera to "potential futures" (this is based on nothing more than a friendly rivalry with LACC and the ability to host what would be a great Open in a major city).

[BHoover]

Alex, what venues do you think could or would be added to the Open rota?

I suppose another factor is whether the membership at a particular course continues to support hosting an Open. It seems that Oakmont's membership has no such qualms, but what about those at places such as Winged Foot and Shinnecock? I have no inside information, I'm merely speculating. But weren't the members at those clubs apparently less-than-thrilled with the USGA in 2004 and 2006?

[Michael George]

Brian - Firestone could host an Open but it already hosts an annual tour event.


Northeast Ohio won't ever get an Open as it would just compete with the Bridgestone Invitational and take dollars away from the charities for that event.  Even the Open at Oakmont (1:30 away) hurts the Bridgestone.


If Firestone wasn't an issue, I agree with Brian that no course could host the Open in northeast Ohio.   The pros would eat up the great courses in the area.

[Mike_Trenham]

Par was 69 at Philadelphia CC.  Also the last hole was a par 5 like this year.

[Jay Flemma]

I would love to see it at the renovated Philly Cricket.


Isn't The Donald angling his ass off to try and get a U.S. Open at one of his joints? Any front-runners from his growing portfolio?

They might have to re-configure the routing b/c where would you put grandstands around 18?  But I'd love to see PCC host a major. Phenomenal job there by Foster.

[J Sadowsky]

Let's think about the likely "regular" venues (every 10 years):
Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Pinehurst

Likely "occasional" venues (every 15 years):
Torrey Pines, Winged Foot, Congressional, Chambers Bay(?), Olympic, Southern Hills, Erin Hills(?)

Less frequent venues (more than 15 years):
Merion, LACC, The Country Club

Potential future venues:
Olympia Fields, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Medinah, Bethpage, Aronimink

1) I don't think Shinny will be an every-ten-year thing, because it is private, still vaguely hard to get, and in an area crowded with good courses,  But if BPB stays a "PGA" course, that might be possible.


2) I think Ferry Point would have been on this list a month ago, and still will join it if Trump ever gives up management (or possibly when he retires).


3) On a similar note, any urban-accessible major public courses will get more opportunities than others.  Expect to see Torrey, Chambers Bay, Erin Hills, and Pinehurst more frequently than you might expect.

[BHoover]

You could very well be correct. My list was only an attempt to compile what seems to be likely future venues. I welcome any difference of opinion of course.

As for Shinnecock, it may have difficult logistics, but it sure seems like the type of venue the USGA is likely to visit fairly regularly. Maybe not exactly every 10 years but I believe it will be in the rota as long as the members want to host the Open.

[Phil McDade]

As for Shinnecock, it may have difficult logistics, but it sure seems like the type of venue the USGA is likely to visit fairly regularly. Maybe not exactly every 10 years but I believe it will be in the rota as long as the members want to host the Open.

This is correct.



It's been (or will be once we hit 2018; they probably would've hosted slightly earlier than that save for the inclusion of the Chambers Bay/Erin Hills experiments) held there four times since 1986 -- or roughly once every 10 years for nearly half a century -- that's about as "rota" as the USGA is going to get. Whether technology bypasses this course by 2028 is another question.

[David Kelly]

I would like the  USGA to establish a rota of Torrey Pines, Chambers Bay, Erin Hills and Bethpage Black and then keep their hands off the rest of the courses in the country.

[Matthew Sander]

I would like the  USGA to establish a rota of Torrey Pines, Chambers Bay, Erin Hills and Bethpage Black and then keep their hands off the rest of the courses in the country.

You know, David, that isn't the worst idea I've ever heard.


BTW, did the USGA do much fiddling the last time Oakmont held the U.S. Open? I'd be fine if it was held there every year.

[DFarron]

I don't think there's any course in NE Ohio capable of holding a modern US Open. I don't even know that there's any course in Ohio that would fit the bill--maybe Inverness, but even it may have been seen its final major.

There surely are great venues for Senior Opens, Women's Opens, etc., such as Inverness, Canterbury, Scioto (and probably a few others). But I don't know that a modern Open or PGA will be returning to Ohio anytime soon if only because I don't think any course currently has the length, let alone meet the logistical demands, of a modern major championship. I'm not saying it's right, but it's reality.

Brookside could clearly hold an open, Sand Ridge could also but getting in and out of there would be a nightmare and it isn't as great as Brookside but could be made to play tough enough.