Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?

[Niall C]

Niall, that is all I am trying to say. Luck has greater influence over a short term.


You can fight that effect by increasing the term. Setting up a course with narrow fairways and very thick rough where options are limited is in effect increasing the influence of luck by reducing the number of interaction.

So luck is a bigger influence than skill !?! I find that an astonishing statement. So the guy who has taken up golf for a living and who has probably practised hitting drivers for what, thousands of hours ? has been coached in it, and further more stands up and tries to replicate what he's learned and practised, and when he achieves that, it's down to luck more than skill ? You can't be serious, surely ?

Niall

[Richard Choi]

I don't think you understand how statistics work...

[herrstein]

I am a huge fan of the idea that golf is a Scottish game, and unfairness is an important part of the true game.
Most Americans are addicted to fairness as an idea, if not a practice.
I watched Gary Player's comments here:
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/gary-player-critical-chambers-bay-course-setup/?cid=facebook-gc-v-gary-player-chambers-bay-setup-062015
He rips the course.
I have never been a fan of Gary Player's courses, but he makes interesting points. I always love to hear someone of his stature really speak their mind, too.
I have enjoyed watching this US Open, but my favorite tournament to watch is The Open.
But I also enjoy watching the US at more typical USGA venues.
Just not sure what I think about this setup. Maybe they let it go a little too far- but someone is still breaking par every day.
And Jason Day yesterday was riveting.

[Terry Lavin]

The course and the setup have also combined to produce a quality leaderboard after three days of competition. As far as identifying the best player, it has been a lot better than I had feared, probably because the greens have retained some moisture. I was also mightily impressed with Dustin Johnson hitting every fairway in yesterday's round. So far Mike Davis and Chambers Bay have done better than okay in my book.

[Paul Gray]

A slight tangent but time for just a smidgen of myth busting perhaps:

Firstly, I'm sure that the slopes at CB are a significant factor which we experience far less here on traditional links courses. That is a given.

However, this notion that sandy, firm and fast conditions create a bouncing lottery is plain wrong. In 25 years of links golf in Britain I have never experienced the unpredictability which seems to be part of the collective narrative. Sure, occasionally you'll get a heavy bounce. Don't however blame conditions when you land a ball on a heavily contoured firm fairway and discover it has rolled sideways. Your failure to read the golf course does not mean you suffered from anything unpredictable. You have NOT just been unlucky.

[Richard Choi]

So far Mike Davis and Chambers Bay have done better than okay in my book.

That is a strong praise coming from you, judge. I'll take it.

[Richard Choi]

I have learned one thing after all this.

Just like pace of play and cartball, at the end of the day, GCA is no different than "retail golfers" where green conditioning counts 90% when it comes to judging a course.

[Jud_T]

This has been a big success already in my book.  Previously, I wouldn't have considered making a detour to CB on my way to Bandon.  Now I will consider making the time, which is no small praise given how highly I regard Bandon.

[jeffwarne]

I have learned one thing after all this.

Just like pace of play and cartball, at the end of the day, GCA is no different than "retail golfers" where green conditioning counts 90% when it comes to judging a course.

Richard,
Appreciate your reports.
You know better than anyone on GCA about CB.
i realize a few greens roll perfectly late in the day. (rebuilt recently)
Would the other greens roll better if the USGA wasn't stressing them so hard? I.E. Did they roll better a month ago(by better I mean less bouncing off line as the ball slows)
They look a bit like Pebble's in the 2010 Open.
Does the course even need to be stressed that much to highlight its GCA?
Looks like great slope.tilt etc., and probably firm anyway

[Terry Lavin]

It's on my destination list as well, Jud.  It hasn't been the home run that the first Bethpage Open was, but it's a grand slam for the PAC NW, without a doubt.

[Brent Hutto]

When someone criticizes a course that happens to be brown, that does not mean they are complaining about it not being green. Emerald green putting surfaces that putt like some of the Chambers Bay greens have putted at certain times during this US Open would be criticized for putting poorly.


For certain influential USGA types as well as many people on this forum, it seems to me if a course has the One True Monoculture of grass and is brown and dry then it is good, period. If dry brown Fescue fairways play well they are good because they play well. If stressed, possibly dying brown greens putt well then they are good because they suit their purpose. Dryness, brownness, Fescueness, stressed conditions...all these are means to an end.


Except to those trying to make some kind of quasi-mystical point of advocacy. Brown Fescue grass isn't part of some higher truth. It's just grass after all.

[Joe Hancock]

I have learned one thing after all this.

Just like pace of play and cartball, at the end of the day, GCA is no different than "retail golfers" where green conditioning counts 90% when it comes to judging a course.

That ought to set well with the 1400 or so GCA'ers who didn't opine. And of all the things you could've learned.....that was the thing?

I have enjoyed your perspective and local knowledge, and I have enjoyed watching the playing conditions. There's a few things visually that aren't my cup of tea when it comes to the course, but it is displaying some fun shots. Thanks for sharing your time with us while you were there.

[jeffwarne]

It's on my destination list as well, Jud.  It hasn't been the home run that the first Bethpage Open was, but it's a grand slam for the PAC NW, without a doubt.

and to be fair, Bethpage Black is a very difficult walk, and is not nearly as playable as CB appears to be.
bethpage actually lost me AFTER their renovation and subsequent narrowing.
CB looks like it would be fun

[Richard Choi]

Jeff, this is the best that they have ever rolled at Chambers.

[Jim_Kennedy]

There's something wrong when you have to walk 17,600 yards to play a 7,600 yard golf course. 

[Garland Bayley]

There's something wrong when you have to walk 17,600 yards to play a 7,600 yard golf course.

Where is that done? If it is done at Chambers Bay, then it is done at The Ocean Course, at Whistling Straits, and will be done at Erin Hills.


I'm sorry that people are so jealous of Chambers Bay that they focus on this nonsense.


I am old and clinically obese and have walked and played 36 at Chambers Bay in a day. You can ask Mark Saltzman about it as he did the 36 hole day at the same time, playing with me the second 18.


Isn't it about time to drop this nonsense?

[Brent Carlson]

There's something wrong when you have to walk 17,600 yards to play a 7,600 yard golf course.

Considering the final twosome played in just over 4 hours, they made quick work of all the length.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Brent,


So a 2-some in just over 4 hours is good?


Garland,


Jealousy isn't part of the equation. If you think that walking an extra 5.7 miles while playing 4.3 miles of golf course is fine, so be it. 

[Carl Nichols]

Tone deaf responses from blind loyalists who can't admit the obvious.

This is 100% correct.  Some people seem to think that simply admitting, as just one example, that the greens were the worst (and certainly the least consistent) in the last __ years of major championships is somehow an indictment of the entire project.

[Jim Nugent]

Brent,

So a 2-some in just over 4 hours is good?

For the final group in a major championship, where one of the players is in and out of the lead all day long, and has a 12 footer to win on the last hole?  Yes. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Brent,

So a 2-some in just over 4 hours is good?

For the final group in a major championship, where one of the players is in and out of the lead all day long, and has a 12 footer to win on the last hole?  Yes.

...and it could have been done in 1/2 hour or more less if not for the 3 or 4 extra miles they had to walk.


Again, when the non-playing yardage is longer than the course itself you've got 'issues'.


Sounds like a course in a real estate development, minus the carts and the houses. 

[Jason Thurman]

Jim, you sound like a moron. The non-playing yardage is not longer than the playing yardage. Not even close. Not even within a couple miles.

[Garland Bayley]

Brent,


So a 2-some in just over 4 hours is good?


Garland,


Jealousy isn't part of the equation. If you think that walking an extra 5.7 miles while playing 4.3 miles of golf course is fine, so be it.

What astounds me is that any one can think that "walking an extra 5.7 miles while playing 4.3 miles of golf course" can even remotely be related to truth.


When John Kirk asserted he thought that the green to tee walks at Pacific Dunes were 20 to 40 percent shorter, I went off and measured them on Google Earth, and it turns out that they are 5 percent shorter, but since Chambers gives you a ride from 3 to 4, what you need walk at Chambers is actually slightly shorter than Pacific Dunes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The USGA measured the walk at between 8.5 and 9 miles, which adds up to the length of the golf course x2, i.e. you walk as far without making any swings as you do while playing.


Looks like 10 years from now the Open will be back at Chambers Bay, this time with better greens and a better experience for the crowd.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim, you sound like a moron. The non-playing yardage is not longer than the playing yardage. Not even close. Not even within a couple miles.

You can call the USGA morons,  they reported it as such, along with a few other sources. 

p.s. If youcall me a moron again pardner, you better be using green ink.