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Tommy Williamsen

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Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« on: June 15, 2015, 08:52:14 PM »
Too expensive
Too difficult
Takes to long to play

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Joe Zucker

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2015, 09:09:51 PM »
No,  I don't think so.  The three claims made certainly sound like they accurately describe Chambers Bay, but that doesn't mean it is everything wrong with golf.  If we accept that certain types of players need different types of courses (children and beginners need simple layouts without many hazards) then it makes sense that the best of the world need a special type of course for their championships.  This is what Chambers seems to be, along with a special treat that some people might play once every few years.

Whether or not it is worthwhile to build a course specifically for this group of players like Pierce county did is definitely debatable in my eyes.  Maybe that's more of what you were getting at.  But I think it's fine that this course and others like it exist, it can be a fun substitute once or twice a year from the normal courses I play every weekend.

Steve Lang

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2015, 09:21:09 PM »


NO

Too expensive
Too difficult
Takes to long to play

not Too expensive at twilight, ... and I've paid more elsewhere
not Too difficult to play, ... actually quite fun if you wish to accept links golf options for getting the ball in the hole
not too, ... Takes to long to play,...  you got something better to do? then go do it!

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jason Way

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2015, 09:35:07 PM »
As an out-of-town visitor to Chambers Bay, I didn't find it to be those things, although I went in November and wasn't paying peak season rates. 

The course is obviously challenging, but it is highly flexible so that you can take on as much of it as you want.  It doesn't exude ego - it exudes options.  I played with two locals, and they were more the rule than the exception.  My sense was that the locals use the course at least as much as golf travel junkies like me.  Again though, that could have been a function of the time of year that I was there.

As for the time that it took to play, the fact that it is walking only speeds play, I believe.  No stats to back that claim up, but we moved around nicely in a threesome. 

Would I ever bring my young boys to that course?  No.  But for adults, I think that Chambers Bay has a lot of what is right about golf, if the players use it properly.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2015, 11:21:12 PM »
With county residents paying some $200 peak time for a municipally owned course, cost overruns that will never be recouped, and a clubhouse in a double wide, it seems to be the poster child on how not to build a course.  Granted it is a really nice course. Is it a course that should have been built?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

RJ_Daley

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2015, 11:35:53 PM »
Tommy, I think you make valid points.   My take is I'm glad it was built.  I do think it should have been a private venture, not a municipal project.  That is too much expense for local government IMHO.  I am a big proponent for 'affordable municipal golf'  not 1%er strata golf for recreational opportunities in an affordable strata for the majority of citizen taxpayers.  It seems to me there are enough municipal local and state grant and tax district zoning authority mechanisms that they could have made a suitable developer an offer to accomplish incentive for a private well suitable and financially capable private entity to build this course for the same parameters of 'championship venue' as what Pierce Co wound up fronting.  Maybe there are financial and funding arrangements we or I haven't been aware of.  But as it stands, it seems inappropriate for a muni project to me. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Richard Choi

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2015, 11:47:57 PM »
I agree it is expensive. No argument there.

I would argue there is almost no other course that can entertain low and high handicappers alike as much as Chambers. I have played with pros, weekend hackers, my 13 year old daughter who can barely break 120, and a woman who played her third round (ever) at Chambers. And EVERYONE had a great time playing the course and raved about it.

I don't think I need to talk about how hard it is even for the very best pros. However, it is VERY accessible to beginners. There is very little forced carry and even if you cannot hit your ball in the air, the ball will bounce longer than most beginners ever hit before. It is a GREAT course for beginners. Difficulty is not an issue. If there were more munis (that were affordable) like Chambers, golf would be a growing game.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2015, 11:57:25 PM »
I'll take your word for it as far as versatile.  I only walked it when it was about 3/4th finished.  But, it is hard to concede the versatility and yet resolve the affordability factor and what seems on the surface as inordinate expense for local taxpayers to subsidize if it isn't turning a true profit after about a decade.  If it is truly not needing any taxpayer subsidy now, and pays back the downstroke expense to the coffers, then problem solved in my view...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Richard Choi

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2015, 12:00:22 AM »
I agree. I think charging this much for a muni is obscene. I think they should be more in line with what Bethpage charges.

Matthew Sander

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2015, 12:29:08 AM »
Hi Tom,

Is your characterization of Chambers as "too difficult" in reference to its role as a municipal course? The only reason I ask is that many of the courses that are lauded here (on GCA) are in fact quite difficult.

I have not played it, but Ballyhack has been characterized by many as very difficult. Since it is a private club, should a different measure of difficulty apply?

With regards to the financial portion of your question, I would be hesitant to position CB as a facility for other municipalities to mimic too closely. The rates are awfully high by any measure.

That said, I truly enjoyed the course and I didn't find it uber-difficult. As a matter of fact I left with the impression that it was very playable.

Tim Leahy

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2015, 02:25:28 AM »
A "public" course with no cart option is ridiculous.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2015, 03:40:57 AM »
I wish I were still playing golf because this course looks like a great challenge. I used to love quirky courses requiring creative shot making around greens, and this looks ideal.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mark Pearce

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2015, 04:11:15 AM »
A "public" course with no cart option is ridiculous.
Why?  It's very common over here.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2015, 04:34:30 AM »
Is C-Bay open 12 months of the year?

Thinking about the cost to play C-Bay and that staff costs are normally a very significant element of overall costs, how many staff would be regularly employed at C-Bay (not extras taken on for the US Open, just the regular 12-month p/a employees)?

In addition, would it be reasonable to presume, being kinda minimalist and with only one tree, that there'd be a lower number of greenkeeping crew at C-Bay than would be usual on a green-n-lush, highly watered and tree corridored 18-hole course?

Just curious.

atb

Jim Nugent

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2015, 05:10:07 AM »
I agree Chambers Bay is too expensive to play, and as a public course they paid way too much to build it.   

What do you think, then, of Ferry Point, which I'm pretty sure cost at least 6x as much to build (and that's for the course only; doesn't count environmental expenses)? 

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2015, 06:19:52 AM »
forgive ignorance,

what did it cost to build and what does it cost to play?

David Davis

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2015, 06:41:41 AM »
Sorry, can't agree with any of these points.

Too expensive...location and property. Close to a major city, actually in-between a few of them. Compare to Pebble - then it's cheap. Didn't it already make the Top 50 in the world as per golf magazine? Regardless of whether this is deserved how much does it cost to play other Top 50 courses in the US. UK is of course cheaper but you have to get there.

Accessible to everyone as Rich states. How easy is it to get a time at Bethpage if you are not a local? Sure it's cheap at 120 USD or whatever.

You do realize that before the course there was a huge gaping hole there, a large rock quarry, mine etc. Talk about your eyesore to bring down the value of a community. They replaced it with something remarkable. Sure at great cost but as least they clean up their mess. On top of that it's brought in the US Open and considerable tourism that would of never come to Tacoma. Still it may have been too expensive yes but it sure is better than what it was for all involved.

In terms of costs for locals, somehow I was under the impression that the green fees for locals in that county were around 50-75 USD. Can someone confirm this?

I've played 4 times, twice comped but paid happily twice and I can't remember paying over 100 USD. Maybe there was a special going on.

I think it's fantastic, a great addition to the area. It has a unique draw for golfers, especially after the Open has been there.

Too difficult, this comes down to choice of tees. What I've witnessed there is that the average players choose to play way back, that's just ego and lack of knowledge. The last time I was there. I arrived last on the tee only to find 3 guys ranging in hcp from 9-16 standing at the furthest back tees. The starting saying nothing about this to them. That. Is. A. Mistake.

It's a different kind of golf and most the course you could play with a putter. What's too difficult about that? It's links (like) golf play very firm and fast. The European Islanders (;-) know nothing else.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Craig Sweet

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2015, 07:29:47 AM »
Web site says $299 plus 15% tax for 18 holes...Verdict...too expensive.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

jeffwarne

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2015, 07:39:27 AM »
I think I like the finished product
.(can't speak for the process or the prices and I would love to see some municipality build a bit less complex eye candy explosion of the senses that was equally capable of hosting our Open-i.e. the opposite of Ferry Point or even Chambers)
I certainly look forward to watching-and I have really enjoyed Richard Choi's informed comments from on the ground.

Since this is the rant thread, is anyone else tired of seeing the childish fued between two grown, inherited "expertise", entitled sons of a famous architect constantly aired publicly?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 08:28:25 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff Taylor

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2015, 08:32:24 AM »
"Too expensive
Too difficult
Takes to long to play"

It seems like it is for you. As for others, why would you care?

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2015, 08:42:19 AM »
Actually, I didn't intend this to be a rant thread. On another thread we took Nicklaus to task about his comments that golf is too expensive, too difficult, and takes too long to play.  It was noted that that description could be said of most of JN's courses.  I think Chambers Bay is a good test.  Does it fall into JN's description of what's wrong with golf? The course is good enough to hold a U.S. Open.  That said, it cost $21,000,000 to build with a cost over run of $8,000,000. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

David Davis

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2015, 08:52:44 AM »
Actually, I didn't intend this to be a rant thread. On another thread we took Nicklaus to task about his comments that golf is too expensive, too difficult, and takes too long to play.  It was noted that that description could be said of most of JN's courses.  I think Chambers Bay is a good test.  Does it fall into JN's description of what's wrong with golf? The course is good enough to hold a U.S. Open.  That said, it cost $21,000,000 to build with a cost over run of $8,000,000.

One of the videos just posted from yesterday says that this US Open alone will easily bring an estimated 120 million in tourist revenue to the area. I'd argue that finally the state of WA made a wise investment of taxpayers money. How much would that gravel quarry have brought in for the tax payers?
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Brent Hutto

Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2015, 09:06:18 AM »
The US Open being played there will bring in a lot of tourist money.

That may explain why a too-expensive course was built but it doesn't make it anything other than too expensive. By any meaningful reckoning, spending US$21,000,000 to build a so-called municipal golf course is unreasonable.

Regardless of the merits of this particular US Open or of the course itself, the expense and over-the-top nature of Chambers Bay is indeed emblematic of the very trends that this group typically decries as what's "wrong with golf".

You know people don't set out to do stupid, unsustainable things totally out of proportion to sustainable reality. There is *always* some motivation, whether it is bringing a US Open, attracting an NFL team to an area or simply selling a bunch of overpriced MacMansions because the Nicklaus name is attached.

Yes, it always seems like a good idea at the time. And yet in the end we have a one-off 21 million dollar exercise in conspicuous construction, don't we? And it will receive all sorts of self-serving praise from the people who spent tax payer dollars to build it and from the USGA who can trumpet it as yet another "success" in growing the game. Ye Gods.

P.S. For what it's worth, to me Chambers Bay looks like a very cool golf course that would be a blast to play. Yes, the current pricing bear no relation to the reality I personally inhabit but if I were in that part of the country I'd probably bite the bullet and play it once.

Phil McDade

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2015, 09:15:04 AM »
Tommy:

Your initial question -- too long, expensive, and difficult -- suggests that you're approaching this query from the standpoint of the typical retail golfer. Like the blind men touching the elephant, I think one's perspective on CBay depends on how one views its role in golf.

It's pretty evident that in the past 20 years or so, there is an emerging trend toward building golf courses for the very purpose of attracting and hosting significant tournaments. True, there is a long history of courses being built to test the very upper echelons of the game -- see Pine Valley and Winged Foot as prime examples.

But Whistling Straits, Erin Hills and CBay are are public courses designed to do the very thing they are doing: hosting majors, and other significant tournaments. In turn, they "charge" a rate their owners view as commensurate for being able to play a "major" course. And look at some of their common characteristics -- they are all very flexible courses, can be stretched to enormous lengths (a direct reaction to golf's unwillingness to reign in technology; in an odd way, these "public major" golf courses help exacerbate the golf technology arms race), and promote themselves as places where the golfing public can test its game on the same courses as the very best in the game.

This is where the game is headed -- a bifurcated experience (not dissimilar to what we see in baseball or football) where there is a field of play for the professionals, and other fields of play for the rest of us. In a way, I see it as a hopeful trend, as perhaps golf's ruling bodies will stop taking their majors to architecturally significant courses (Merion East) and thus stop butchering notable features of those courses (one can only presume the good folks at TCC Brookline knew this, as they declined to host the centennial U.S. Open marking Ouimet's historic win in 1913.)

I don't view CBay as too long, or expensive, or even difficult -- its intent is to be exactly those things.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is Chambers Bay everything that's wrong with golf?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2015, 09:17:08 AM »
If every course was Chambers Bay, yes. If just a few are, then no.

While the economics of building a US Open course are fairy tale stuff to most courses, I think it is a good thing that they are building new courses to hold major tournaments, given the length needed and no prospects of rolling the ball back....

I think its good that its a public course venue for the US Open, and figure that will be the model moving forward in the US.  Probably need one of these in different regions to move future Opens around.

And, even though there are too many of them, I think there is nothing wrong with a hard course every once in a while.

Lastly, they can remodel the thing to be more playable, as most difficult courses are, if they decide this Open will be one and done.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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