Great Southern GC (formerly Mississippi Coast CC) / Info on Charles G. Nieman?

[Kevin Lynch]

Charles G. Nieman

So, yesterday, I was driving by Lancaster Country Club (New York) and wondered who the architect was.  After a little research, I discovered the name Charles G. Nieman.  There was nothing about him in Cornish & Whitten and this was his only attributed course on various sites.  I was ready to dismiss him as a "one-off" designer, but decided to take one a quick peek for any other info.

Thanks to the Fulton Archives, I located a Buffalo-area obituary for Nieman which indicated he was a "builder of about 15 golf courses, including Tri County, Lancaster and Wanakah Country Clubs, as well as courses in Mississippi, Texas, Montana and Mexico."  

For reference, Wanakah is on Lake Erie, and generally accepted as a Willie Watson design that significantly altered an earlier Ross design (only 3 or so original Ross holes remain).  For Tri-County and Lancaster, I found no articles naming another designer, so he may have actually designed those, instead of simply constructing them.  I found numerous mentions of Nieman as a well-known pro in the Buffalo area in the early 20th century.

However, the references to Mississippi, Texas, etc. had me wondering a little more about this guy.  A Google search on him led me to a reference to the Great Southern Golf Club in Gulfport, MS.


Great Southern Golf Club

According to the Great Southern Website:

"Mississippi's oldest golf course was built in 1908 as a nine-hole course to accommodate tourists staying at the Great Southern Hotel owned by the founder of Gulfport, Captain Joseph T. Jones. ....The Donald Ross designed course was built by Charles Nieman, a contractor out of New Orleans, at the request of Bert Jones, a Harvard graduate and the son of the founder of Gulfport, Captain Jones.

Land north of the L & N Railroad was acquired in 1921 by the owners, the Stewart family of Gulfport, to make room for an additional nine holes.  By 1922 they were completed, following the original designs inspired by Donald Ross.  "



This seemed to make some sense, since Nieman had been involved in constructing courses before, and may have even had some connection to Ross in the initial construction of Ross' holes at Wanakah (before the Watson revamp).  However, there seems to be some doubt over the Ross connection at Great Southern.

Looking through the GCA Archives, I found this quote from Brad Tufts:

MS - Great Southern Golf Club, which may now be Katrina-altered, as it is loacted just across rte. 90 from the ocean in Gulfport, Miss.  It has a long history, and claims it was designed by Ross, even though the DRS does not confirm the claim, and there apparently is no real proof. (Any new info out there?)

-Brad

Like Brad, I was also curious why the Donald Ross Society doesn't have this course listed (or any course listed in Mississippi, for that matter.)  So I thought I'd see if I could find any new information.


I located a Hancock County, Mississippi historical website (http://oceanspringsarchives.net/hancock-harrison-county) which presented a different evolution story for Great Southern Golf Club (formerly Mississippi Coast Country Club).  If you follow the link, and search for a section called "The White House in Dixie", there is a large article about Woodrow Wilson's visit to the country club in 1913-14 and a bit about its creation (with references to contemporaneous newspaper articles).  

A few characters from the Great Southern version did re-appear, including Joseph T Jones, Bert Jones, and Charles Nieman.  However, noticeably absent was any reference to Donald Ross.  A few excerpts below:

"The roots of the present day Great Southern Golf and Country Club lie with Joseph A. “Bert’ Jones (1877-1910), the son of Joseph T. Jones (1842-1916), considered the founder of Gulfport, Mississippi.  In the fall of 1909, Bert Jones acquired about fifty acres of land fronting on the Mississippi Sound in Lots 61-77 of the Louis Auguste Frederic Survey in Section 32, T7S-R8W in Harrison County, Mississippi situated at the time between Biloxi and Gulfport.  Today this fine golf links is within the Gulfport city limits.(The Daily Herald, October 23, 1909, p. 5)

Charles G. Neiman (1878-1920+) of the Wanakah Golf Club of Buffalo, New York was the first grounds keeper and teaching professional at the Mississippi Coast Country Club.  By February 1910, he had the grounds cleared of trees and stumps and fairways planted in a combination of Bermuda and English rye grasses, and laid out the first six-holes, which were in play primarily by winter tourists from the North.  Initially, the links had only nine holes, but by President Wilson’s visit in December 1913-January 1914, eighteen holes were in play.(The Daily Herald, February 2, 1910, pp. 1 and 4)

The Mississippi Coast Country Club-was founded in the fall of 1909 by Joseph A. “Bert’ Jones (1877-1910), the son of Joseph T. Jones (1842-1916), considered the founder of Gulfport, Mississippi.  The course location was selected and laid out by Lee Carroll and W.P. Stewart of the Audubon Golf Club of New Orleans.  Charles G. Nieman (1876-1920+), a New York native who came to Gulfport from the Wanakah Golf Club of Buffalo, New York was the first grounds keeper and teaching professional at the Mississippi Coast Country Club.  George Ensminger also of Buffalo joined Mr. Nieman in 1911.

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So, what am I trying to accomplish with this thread?

1)  I'm hoping to shed some light on the role of Ross at Great Southern GC.  The Hancock County site seems to give credit to lee Carroll and WP Stewart.  

However, when Brian Curley did some restoration work in 1999, a website indicated that Curley "took pains to keep Ross' square greens."  

Did Curley have access to the mystery "original designs inspired by Donald Ross?"  


2) On a more obscure level, I'm wondering if anyone has any insight into Charles G. Nieman.  In particular, I'm curious about his non-Buffalo professional career.  If he built courses in Texas, Mississippi, Montana and Mexico, how did he arrive there?  From what I can see from Western New York papers, he started as a Buffalo pro in 1896, left the area for an extended period, and returned to Buffalo in the 1917  (Lancaster and Tri-County were built in the 1920s).

Perhaps his experience down south gave him the desire to move into design rather than simple construction.  I'm curious if he had any training from or exposure to some of the bigger names in the industry.  The Hancock County Archive mentioned Thomas Bendelow's time in Mississippi.

Also, he seems to be a bit of a golfing pioneer in our area.  One 1921 article portrayed him as Buffalo's "Original Yankee Golfer", having over 27 years of experience at the time.  This would have put him in the same timeframe that saw CB MacDonald lay out a rudimentary 3 hole course near the current Delaware Park. Was he possibly "courted" to the New Orleans area given his experience?


3) Even more obscure would be whether anyone is aware of Charles G. Nieman as a known club designer.  Google turned up an antique golf auction item - the "Charles G. Nieman Kroydon Mid Iron."


I look forward to any insights or thoughts from the Treehouse.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kevin,
The "Ball Face" iron was in the Kroydon line and most likely stamped for Nieman by them, something done at the time for club pros.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kevin:

Here's an article that notes Great Southern was laid out by a "Buffalo professional" which most certainly could have been Nieman.

Oct. 1909 Golf Magazine -

[Rees Milikin]

The amount of courses attributing their design to Ross without any proof is very commonplace.  I can think of quite a few in FL that claim Ross, but aren't...I think this is another one to add to the list.

Very interesting info and thanks for sharing.

[Kevin Lynch]

The amount of courses attributing their design to Ross without any proof is very commonplace.  I can think of quite a few in FL that claim Ross, but aren't...I think this is another one to add to the list.

Very interesting info and thanks for sharing.

I suspect that you are correct about adding this to the list.  I just wonder if Curley found something to believe they were "Donald Ross trademarks - square faced greens" or if they simply decided not to look too hard challenging the club's position.  Seems like they would have some obligation to do some research if they're renovating a course but "preserving" a supposed Ross element.

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin,
The "Ball Face" iron was in the Kroydon line and most likely stamped for Nieman by them, something done at the time for club pros.

Thanks, Jim - from an old Buffalo article, I sensed that he built clubs himself at some point (I found some antique drivers with only his name on them).  Am I correct that Kroydon standardized the process, thereby making it difficult for  the individual, custom club makers to keep up?  At that point, pros like Charles Nieman would simply lend their name for marketing?

[Kevin Lynch]

Thanks for the article, Sven.  That seems to confirm the "Lee Carroll" (sic) from the Hancock County website. 

Have you had any luck finding references to Nieman in the South outside of Great Southern?  I'm pretty curious why Nieman left his early Buffalo positions to travel the country.  Given the prominence of Buffalo in the early 20th century, I'm wondering if some rich and powerful club members from Buffalo gave his name to other rich friends throughout the country.

[Brad Tufts]

Funny that one of my old quotes made it to this thread.


I came across Great Southern while looking at options for a Spring Break trip a few years before 2005, and it looked like they were touting Ross without much concrete evidence.


Maybe he did visit (or one of his associates), but cool that it appears cleared up now.

[Jim_Kennedy]

  Am I correct that Kroydon standardized the process, thereby making it difficult for  the individual, custom club makers to keep up?

Wilson, MacGregor, Spalding, were churning out golf products when the Kroydon Co. was formed. Mechanization (post WW1) and the introduction of the steel shaft 'killed' the club making business for the little guy.
 




 


 
 

[MCirba]

I noted from old newspapers that by 1915 the golf course was still only 9 holes.   I suspect the second nine was built around 1922 after WWI and that may have been the Ross involvement.   Or not.   

John (Jack) Daray was the professional there during those years I believe and if memory serves he did some golf course architecture in his day.

Here's a link with a bit more on this history of golf in that neighborhood.

http://biloxihistoricalsociety.org/golf-courses-0

[MCirba]

I'm hoping to play here during Christmas week.   I'll see what archival materials they may have available regarding Ross, but I suspect if he did anything it may have been creating grass greens at some point in the 20s or 30s.